ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Vit-A-Jim on December 04, 2004, 04:28:33 AM
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Today, I tried to turn on the engine (Sidekick 1,6 8v 2door 1993) and although the engine was rotating by the starter motor it didn’t start. Also, on the left of the drivers feet there was a trickling noise of a small relay that was (activating and deactivating fast) while the key was in the second position. The same noise was also heard on the engine bay from a small blue valve called (EGR VSV Electronic Gas Recirculation Vacuum Switching Valve).
Further search, showed that I had voltage on the spark plugs, and also that when I removed one spark plug, there wasn’t any fuel spitting out (as I thing it should ?).
Finally, I removed the cover of the relay and I pressed the contact manually and then I managed to turn on the engine. Then after 15 minutes of driving the relay was very hot.
Does anyone know what is this all about?
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The relay is going bad. When the contacts get worn, they don't make very good contact, which causes increased resistance. Increased resistance causes excessive heat build up. Replace that relay and all should be well.
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I would guess fuel pump relay,
it's a high amp draw 3-5 on a fuel
pump
Wild
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Fuel pump is prob. going out! my wifes car did the same thing befor it went. also there should be two relays, I would change both of them out and carry one as a spare.
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Thanks guys for your responce but,
today morning even by holding the contact of the relay the engine didn't start and so I started to search further. Having in mind that the Check Engine light is always on (even yesterday during the driving of the car) I tried to obtain the codes.
The search showed that when I jumped the 2,3 contacts of the ECM testing connector to see the check engine codes (according to the Haynes Manual) the Check Engine light didn't flash at all. It just remained on all the time the key was in the on position.
What's your opinions on that?
According to the Haynes Manual the light should blink isn't it?
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how many miles are on it? when i bought mine the light stayed on and we couldn't pull any codes from diagnosing. if u hit a 20k mile mark 80k,100k, etc try the "dummy switch" it's in the little area of the front drivers speaker. pull the speaker cover and speaker out then look for a little switch in there. flip it and see if ur light goes out. mine did and hasn't been back
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Latest update:
I measured the voltage of the injection cables and I got 0Volt AC when I cranked the engine with the distributor cable disconnected. Someone on another article told that I should have 2-4Volts AC.
Also when I turned the switch to on, I could hear the pump at the back for some seconds and then it stops (I think that's correct) and also when I cranked the engine I could also hear the pump working.
I suspect the ECM. Does anyone know how to certify that?
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Should be V DC not AC
What do you mean distributor cable ?
the coil high Voltage wire ? Make sure
when you do that to ground the spark
to the body, you can damage ignition
stuff if you don't do that.
If on the other hand you pulled the
wires that go to the base of the distributor,
that could cause the no V on the injectors,
most EFI systems use some information
from the distributor to pulse the injectors
and get RPM signal.
A faulty fuel pump relay will not show up
in the EFI computer, only emmissions related
items show there, and then even some of
those may not be detected if they are working
electricaly (like an EGR) but are plugged
Your fuel injectors are designed to run
at 12V DC the Ohm rating of the injectors
is to limit the current flow, but I don't think
that will reduce the voltage.
If you pulled a plug off of the injectors I'm
almost sure you would see a 12V signal, but
remember it will be it milliseconds, so it might
be hard to see on a meter.
Good Luck
Wild
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My '92 did the same thing, turned out to be the ECM. FSM says if check engine light is on steady but will not flash any codes : 1)with switch off, disconnect ECM connector C1, turn switch on. If light is on, theres a short in IPcluster ground wiring. If light does not come on, turn off, reconnect C1, turn switch on. Backprobe C1 with jumper from cavity A17 to ground. Check Engine light flashing? If not flashing, replace ECM.
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  My '92 did the same thing, turned out to be the ECM.  FSM says if check engine light is on steady but will not flash any codes :  1)with switch off, disconnect ECM connector C1, turn switch on.  If light is on, theres a short in IPcluster ground wiring.  If light does not come on, turn off, reconnect C1, turn switch on.  Backprobe C1 with jumper from cavity A17 to ground.  Check Engine light flashing?  If not flashing, replace ECM. ÂÂ
This is the procedure AFTER you have checked that the light is not on due to the mileage.
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Okay, to bring this up again. I have exactly the same problem but only found it by now. But mine does start sometimes :o and if it starts it'll run very bad, backfiring sometimes and missing etc
I checked the EGR valve today the way Haynes describes it, It shouldn't be possible to open it if the engine's cold? On mine it does, so would that mean a broken EGR or something else?
Any answers would be great as I am struggling with this problem way too long now >:(
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Should be V DC not AC
What do you mean distributor cable ?
the coil high Voltage wire ?  Make sure
when you do that to ground the spark
to the body, you can damage ignition
stuff if you don't do that.
If on the other hand you pulled the
wires that go to the base of the distributor,
that could cause the no V on the injectors,
most EFI systems use some information
from the distributor to pulse the injectors
and get RPM signal.
A faulty fuel pump relay will not show up
in the EFI computer, only emmissions related
items show there, and then even some of
those may not be detected if they are working
electricaly (like an EGR) but are plugged
Your fuel injectors are designed to run
at 12V DC  the Ohm rating of the injectors
is to limit the current flow, but I don't think
that will reduce the voltage.
If you pulled a plug off of the injectors I'm
almost sure you would see a 12V signal, but
remember it will be it milliseconds, so it might
be hard to see on a meter.
Good Luck
Wild
The injector signal is switching from 12V to around 1 or 2V so a meter on AC will take an AVERAGE of the voltage. The reading will depend on the on time of the injector. My FSM states that you can pull the A/F duty time from the diagnotic connector. I have looked at this and I get a square wave (no pwm?), have you tried measuring this output with a meter? I will check the FSM later and see what it says. If you PM me I can take you through the whole diagnostic process as given in the manual (could take some time though)
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Okay, to bring this up again. I have exactly the same problem but only found it by now. But mine does start sometimes  :o and if it starts it'll run very bad, backfiring sometimes and missing etc
This could be a faulty capacitor inside the ECM.
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Hey Rhino thanks for that. In the Haynes there is said that you could measere the resistance of the wires that "should" go to the ISC solenoid (Idle Speed Control) and that those should read 4.5-6.6 Ohm, but on mine the wires go to the injector ??? But nevertheless I measured the resistance and got zero so that'd mean I'd have to replace it. Would a broken injector be able to cause the problems stated in this thread????
It's even that weird that it is able to run normal sometimes :o stupid car ;)
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The injector is around 0.8 ohms so it might be that that you're measuring, looking at the Haynes manual now I think you are right and that is an error in the manual. That looks to me like the connector that goes to the injector and the TPS. FSM states ISC to be 11-14 Ohms. You should br able to hear the injector clicking, you may need to use a bit of tubing. You could try fitting jumpers across the fuel pump relay and main relay contacts to rule them out. One time when its not starting pull the connector from the Manifold Pressure Sensor (easy to get at) and check for 5V, if its not present then that might indicate a faulty capacitor on the 5V regulator.
Edit: The Haynes manual is definately wrong!
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Okay I'll check that asap and let you know what comes out! Thanks again ;D
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So, I measured the resistance of the injector, correct and the one of the ISC, correct. It started every time I tried so couldn't measure the MPS sensor Volts.
I switched out the fuel pump relay and main relay and everything was okay, untill I took it out for a ride, then It's like every few seconds it doesn't get fuel, it doesn't stall but It's like you release throttle for a second >:( So I think I'm gonna get me at least a few of those relays. And because the hesitation is so regularly I guess it'll be the ECM? Would this be it? i hope so because then I can sent it out to have repaired for about 50 euro's ;)
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If you can get the ECU repaired for that kind of money then its worth sending it in and having the capacitors replaced anyway. They don't last forever, just make sure you get caps with a good heatrange (stock is -55 to +105C) because they also have a much higher tolerance to ripple voltages and hence longer life.
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If you can get the ECU repaired for that kind of money then its worth sending it in and having the capacitors replaced anyway. They don't last forever, just make sure you get caps with a good heatrange (stock is -55 to +105C) because they also have a much higher tolerance to ripple voltages and hence longer life.
yup, I e-mailed the company today, and the info I had was wrong >:( It would be 280 euro's for the fix :o but on ebay theres a german company that'll do it fot 180 So I'll look that up....
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PROBLEM SOLVED  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
It was the ECU, it has been rebuild so everything is okay now  ;D  ;D
Thanks for all the advises, they really made me look further and kept me from bringing this thing to a mechanic ;D
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I've been told that the 'fix' for most of the ECU issues is to replace a blown $0.02 capacitor.
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I've been told that the 'fix' for most of the ECU issues is to replace a blown $0.02 capacitor.
yup, but the original parts of the older ECU's are real crap so they replaced all those things and tested it. And I have a 2 year warranty on it now so if it breaks down again It'll be replaced for free ;D
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Hi ed oorklep,
Is it possible to say which is the company that fixed your ECU, 'cause I have a spare damaged one to fix.
From all my experience the last 11 years with my kick, I've seen that this is the only damage that can idle the car and do nothing about to start it.
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It's a Dutch company callec ac tronics here's their web page:
http://www.actronics.nl I don't know where you're coming from but if you're European based this would be a good option ;)
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Hi there, sorry to drag this thread to the top again :-[
I've been reading it with interest, because the symptoms are exactly the same as the symptoms I am experiencing with my 1993 Vitara 1.6i 8v....
If you have a minute spare, would you mind taking a quick look at this thread I posted on another forum I use to let me know if you think I'm doing the right thing by sending the ECU/ECM off to be repaired?
http://forum.difflock.com/discus/messages/8/90966.html?1117096979
It's a bit of a long read (but there are pictures to help you from getting bored ;)) but I'd be very grateful to hear your views on the subject.
Just for peace of mind really I guess. :'(
Oh, and great forum you have here by the way.
Kind regards
Steve