ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: super pc on July 17, 2012, 06:20:39 PM
-
Alright, I have been posting in my introduction thread, this is a question that I do believe should be posted in a new topic due to its perplexing nature.
I just got the 1.3 back in the Sami. I had it rebuilt at the local machine shop that I seem to spend more time at than anything. I have had COUNTLESS engines rebuilt/worked over at this shop, very reputible. I used the Lowrangoffroad master kit with HC pistons, .20 over, new EVERYTHING, water pump, oil pump, fan (flexlite electric), radiator (aluminum eco from LR), alternator (GM).
The issue its having is that it gets hot, its damn close to the H. This is really worrying me. The fan is on a switch, I have tried these combinations to no avail:
-Fan on from startup
-Fan on at 1/4 temp
-Fan on at 1/2 temp
-no fan at all
If its on from startup and I shut it off when I hit about 30mph, it will hold temp, unless I am pushing it to over 3,200 rpm's, then it will proceed to get warmer, and once it starts getting warmer, no decel or fan of or on will make a lick of difference. I am seriously at a loss on this one. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!!
-
Oh yeah, It also has an Isky cam.
-
First - get a temperature gauge with numbers or an ir gun - damn close to the H isn't exactly informative.
Second - there are just too many variables to pinpoint anything from a distance - you're going to have to check things off one by one - the problem can be one of excessive heat generation, lack of coolant circulation, or insufficient heat removal.
Excessive heat generation - possible lean mixture or advanced timing - it is possible that the macine shop screwed up and the bores are a hair too small, but that's not the sort of mistake a competent shop makes too often - I don't see the LROR stuff being the cause, one reason being that I'm using the LROR +0.20 HC pistons myself, but everything else in build was OEM Suzuki.
Lack of coolant circulation - defective thermostat, bad water pump, blocked radiator - you say a new radiator & pump (make sure the impeller doesn't spin on the shaft) but don't mention the thermostat - kinked or collapsed hoses.
Insufficient heat removal - fan too small (inadequate diameter, insufficient CFM), possibly wired backwards - it needs to pull air if it's between the engine & the radiator, push air if it's mounted in front of the radiator, no shroud, radiator too small.
I think I've covered it there...
-
Everything is new. Even the t-stat, fan is correct, water pump is functional. I had an old hot rod guy look at it tonight and mention the fan spacing is completely incorrect, the supplied shroud/rubber surround does not put the fan far enough from the radiator. He suggested going back to the original engine driven fan. I'm thinking that's pretty plausible. Also, heater blows hot, All hoses are get hot/warm to the touch. One thing I did notice though, when you blow smoke through the radiator, the fan barely pulls it, also, direction is correct. Pulled t-stat when I got home, dropped in a pot of water with a temp gauge, opens at 182, 2 degrees over, not enough to cause concern.
-
-
Another thing, if I'm building a truck, I get pretty anal, if a part seems to be even moderately worn, it gets replaced.
-
Everything is new. Even the t-stat, fan is correct, water pump is functional. I had an old hot rod guy look at it tonight and mention the fan spacing is completely incorrect, the supplied shroud/rubber surround does not put the fan far enough from the radiator. He suggested going back to the original engine driven fan. I'm thinking that's pretty plausible. Also, heater blows hot, All hoses are get hot/warm to the touch. One thing I did notice though, when you blow smoke through the radiator, the fan barely pulls it, also, direction is correct. Pulled t-stat when I got home, dropped in a pot of water with a temp gauge, opens at 182, 2 degrees over, not enough to cause concern.
With the fan running there should be significant airflow through the radiator - that can well be the cause of your overheat - refitting the original fan & shroud, even if only temporarily, might help you pin down the problem area.
Something that I'm not comfortable with is that you say the temperatures continue to climb, if the revs are over 3200 rpm - on a flat open road (meaning no hills or low gear operation), you should be able to exceed that indefinitely with no fan, and just the forward motion of the vehicle to force air through the radiator.
Two possible causes are some sort of air flow restriction - OR - the engine is generating more heat than normal - I had mentioned advanced timing as a possible cause, and yes, I was thinking of ignition timing, which you say is at 10*, it might be worth the time to recheck the cam timing, if that's retarded the engine can also generate tremendous heat.
-
How exactly do you check the cam timing? I need to buy a new clutch before I put factory back on, it doesn't have any resistance when spun.
-
Cam timing is a matter of lining up the marks on the pulleys - you'll have to remove the timing belt cover, and you'll see a marks on the crank & cam timing pulleys, the crank pulley mark lines up with a pointer on the oil pump and the cam pulley mark lines up with a notch on the back plate.
Make sure you're turning the engine in the correct direction when lining up on the crank pulley marks, and if the cam pulley appears to be 180* out with the crank pulley lined up, just turn the crank one more revolution - I'll try to find you a picture.
Edit..
(http://cdn.2carpros.com/diagrams/6525/large.gif?1288410904)
If you change the cam timing you'll need to reset the ignition timing afterwards.
-
Ill take a look at that today. On another note, I pulled the coolant temp sensors female connector and re-crimped it do it fits tighter, it didn't get as hot anymore... hmm. I noticed to that it doesn't have a engine to body/frame ground strap. Just battery to block and battery to firewall... what issues could this cause?
-
mmmm - that's kind of why I was suggesting a gauge with numbers, or an IR gun - to find out if there is an actual overheat condition.
Lack of a proper ground does affect the gauge readings, although I can't remember whether thry read higher or lower - having a missing block to battery ground is usually a bigger problem, but, adding a block to boy/frame ground isn't difficult you could try it, see what difference (if any) it will make.
-
Okay, took today off to figure this out, at least then I have a 4 day, gotta love flex weekends. Im going to have the mrs get a ground strap while she is out, another thing, right below the coolant temp sensor, there is another sensor that is much larger with a 2 prong white barrel connecter that runs into the harnes. What is that one for? reason I ask, i have a tripple gauge set here that came with the truck, its mechanical for the coolant temp. Is there any other ports for coolant I could possibly use?
-
Okay. I bought a new electrical coolant temp guage, it came with its own sending unit, rethreaded the sending unit so its same as sammy. Fire it up, runs to 200*, tstat kicks open, drops to 185. Get it out and drive around, it goes to 220 and holds steady. I don't get it, im at a loss now.
-
You stated " everything is new. " Does that include the radiator? Sounds like your not getting enough flow through the rad, by both the fan and coolant circulation.
-
here you go, the only thing not replaced was the carb, headers and intake manifold. from oil pan to intake everything else was replaced, from radiator to heater core, everything replaced. Im going to warranty the tstat her in a sec, soon as coffee is good. After that i thing I am going to run an a/w mix of 30/70, and possibly redline watter wetter.
-
Do you have a picture of the front end of the rig?
-
for?
-
theres nothing in front of the grill and nothing in the radiator, you can clearly see light to the other side. What is normal operating temp on these? max temp?
-
is there a winch in the front? etc.
-
my sammie with a cam runs hot also i'm changing out the stock fan clutch today and will see how it does, it runs good when cool out but now summer is just now getting here it starts to heat up, next will be for me to pull the rad and shoot some new black paint on it to see if that helps.
-
hope this works, kind of an idiot when it comes to uploading stuff...
-
holy crap! I did it!!! lol. Any who, it has the lights on, but the radiator is completely clear from side to side.
-
That looks good, the lights might give you problems over 65 mph but for the most part of normal driving they should be no problem, looks real good I used to drive around all over the place and play in the tank traps. lol
-
Its a fun little truck, supposed to run nightmare tonight, but I'm not going to if I cant get it to hold temp.
-
it's 62 deg. here now supposed to get to 80 deg. here today so I will try mine out, if the paint trick does not work I will have to get a three row rad from trail tough, not looking forward to that! I used to go to red rock and cuddle back allot when I lived in cali.
-
Cool, you might have ran nightmare before then. It can be accessed from redrock and garlock. Well, I'm off to the parts house. yay. hoping something works.
-
Ya I never really knew the names of some of the trails there but I do remember coming down a hill in my rail about 80 mph with both back tires locked up and hit a large rock at the bottom and opened up the engine case like a can opener and that was the end of that trip!
-
That sucks.
Well, new tstat, made sure to thouroughly "burp" the system. Still running hot. I honestly do not know what to do anymore.
-
At this point I have to believe the issue is that you simply do not have a large enough radiator. With the upgraded engine you are running a lot more heat then with a stock configuration. Both Sammy's in my club that run built up 1.3 motors had to upgrade to thicker radiators, I don't think the eco replacement is going to be enough. You might want to look at the 2.0 conversion radiator instead.
Make sure your running antifreeze as well, it cools better then straight water.
-
Well I got my new fan clutch in and took it on a good hard two hour run with three people in it in 75 deg weather and the only problem I had was the hood popped to the safety latch so we must have gone over one too many large rocks a little too fast but I did some first gear low range crawling and never smelled any antifreeze so I think it did the trick, so far.
-
well, the previous owner had the same setup two engines ago (shop installed the cam and forgot a c-clip). Before that shop screwed it up, it ran great with zero overheating. I dont think a larger radiator is the key as this motor is technically not high performance. The pistons labeled as HC, are in fact nothing but stock efi 13B pistons, in the 13B block I have installed. Im starting to think that this radioator is just junk. I think monday I am going to call dales speed and marine down south and have one custom built. I would like aluminum tanks with brass/copper core as its better material for dissipating heat.
-
Case in point, a couple buddies down the street have a monster of a sammy, 22R-e swapped and running the sammy radiator. Stays under 200 all day long. Im just honestly thinking this radiator is complete junk.
-
The pistons labeled as HC, are in fact nothing but stock efi 13B pistons, in the 13B block I have installed.
Whilst I haven't seen the pistons you have, I have purchased pistons matching that description (+0.020" high compression pistons) from LROR and what I received were most certainly NOT stock pistons, the stock pistons are both dished and "notched" to clear the valves, the high compression pistons have virtually flat tops with the valve cut outs.
-
They are most definately flat tops, if you pull the pistons out of a TBI sammy, the match perfectely to the hc pistons from lowrange. You have to think, its going from 8.5:1 to 9.0 to one. Not much of a difference. When the machine shop saw they were labeled hc, he said "oh yea? lets look at the technical specs and see if its true." Sure enough, he said look, same as the B block pistons, while they are higher compression than stock for carbed, they are stock for TBI B blocks.
On to the cooling. Bought a new stock radiator today. Truck runs at 190-195 now. The lowrange radiator was causing the overtemp issue. I'm just happy its at that temp considering the forecast.
-
Actually not going to be a bad week temp wise, pretty cool.
-
My bad, 8.9:1 to 9.5:1. Having a long day.
-
can you describe the radiator from low range, is it like the stock type or is it plastic? etc. any pics of it? thanks'
-
All aluminum, thicker than stock, more fins per inch. I checked it for water (rudimentary flow test) and it dumped just like the new one.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/suzuki/samurai/engine-upgrade/suzuki-samurai-economy-full-aluminum-radiator.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/suzuki/samurai/engine-upgrade/suzuki-samurai-economy-full-aluminum-radiator.html)
-
The factory (aftermarket parts house, not Zuki) is plastic tank, aluminum core. Another thing, the upper and lower hoses did not pressurize on the lowrange, they do however on the new one.
-
I wonder if your cap on the lowrange rad was working good and maybe it flowed too well to cool a zuk engine, I had a bad thermostat one time in the dead of winter here and I took it out and drilled a 1/8'' hole on the side of it thinking it would help it get warm and open up but would you believe that that 1/8 hole would keep it cool in the winter !
-
I beleive it. The cap is the same one that was used with the lowrange. Just went wheeling tonight, Got a little more technical that I should have, I did learn a valuable lesson, Sachs clutches from Oreally suck. Other than that she ran great, hottest it got was about 205.