ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Adventure (Let's GO WHEELING!) => Topic started by: crewcabrob on August 06, 2012, 08:35:57 AM
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Hi all,
Just got back from a trip to the Black Hills of South Dakota, Denver/Dillon/Estes Park Colorado and of course Moab Utah. I put 2500 miles on our GV in 7 days. Even with the big tires, lift and the cargo box on top, I averaged over 20mpg for teh entire trip. That is even with the 100 or so offroad miles in the mountains and on the slick rock trails around Moab.
My son got some really great photos of us on Fins & Things and some remote trails on the Eastern Side of the La Sal mountains. The GV did great on Fins & Things and other trails, but the departure angle was hard to deal with sometimes. I ended up dragging the license plate suround on a few of the ledges. I never hit the underside of the truck at any time and the front never hit the ground with the exception of some famous red sand on one steep ledge. Traction was never a problem with the Goodyears (aired down to 18psi) and I was actually quite surprised at how much articulation I was able to get. Notice in one of the photos the front is really unloaded as I climb one of the steep slick rock hills and look at another shot where the rear tire is stuffed into the wheel well.
My brothers blue 2012 Rubicon is in a few photos. He was running 35's and a 6 inch lift. Where I had to be careful of tire placement and such, he just idled over/down/up everything without any drama. He averaged 12.5mpg for the trip.
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010703.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010670.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010659.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010662.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010653.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010625.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010721.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010765.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010579.jpg)
I have lots more pictures but wanted to at least get a teaser out there for people to see.
Rob
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Cool!
Makes me want to build my '99 GV for offroad.
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Looks great! I really want to get my Sidekick to Moab this year. We'll see. Fins n Things is a fun trail.
- Andy
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Thanks Guys! It was a fun trip.
I actually want to sell the GV and just get a Sami to build up. I like the GV, but I would have a lot more fun with a locked sami on 33s.
My mother and grandparents still live in Moab, so we try to drive there at least once a year. Now that my brother has his Jeep, he wants to go there at least twice a year. For as little as I drive the at home, I could either tow the Sami to Moab/Colorado or endure the pain of driving there a couple of times a year.
Rob
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IMHO, a Samurai on 33" tires will probably sit too high for terrain like Moab. A Samurai has too short of a wheelbase for many Moab obstacles and, unless you kept it SPUA with a virtual lift, 33" tires would make it too tall as well. You need to stretch the wheelbase out to around 90" for a 33" tire. When I go back out to Moab, it will be in a stretched Samurai (93" WB) on 33" tires.
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I had no problems with my Sami and 33"s at the 6 EJS's that i've been to. All depends on your driving style and how your setup. I did Potato salad 1 try with 31" all terrains and the next yr I had a heck of a time with 33" mud tires.
Ed
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I had no problems with my Sami and 33"s at the 6 EJS's that i've been to. All depends on your driving style and how your setup. I did Potato salad 1 try with 31" all terrains and the next yr I had a heck of a time with 33" mud tires.
Ed
Thanks for chiming in. Do you think you had more of a chalange with the 33s because of gearing/power or was it a traction issue?
I'm not opposed to running 31s, but 33s would give an additional inch of clearance under the Sami. Gearing can be brought back into alignment fairly easy with t-case gears. My plan all along is to run the bushwacker fender flares and trimming the sheet metal to accomidate the larger tires with the least amount of lift possible. I don't want a huge lift, there are so many unwanted side effects with going BIG.
I would love to stretch a Sami to 90", but I don't see that happening for me. I thought about looking for a long wheelbase model, but it's hard enought to find a Sami in my area that finding a long one would be slim.
Any idea what the least amount of lift it would take to fit 33s under a Sami?
Rob
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A basic SPOA and some front inner fender trimming will fit 33" tires.
Yes, you can drive a Samurai with 33" tires on the stock wheelbase at Moab, but it is far from an ideal setup IMHO. The Sidekicks (2dr and 4dr) with 31" tires do so much better than Samurais out there due to their longer wheelbase, wider track, and most importantly, the COG, which is much lower than a Samurai. I've been very impressed with them and what they can do out there.
Another thing is that all the new (or revised) trails at Moab are meant for vehicles with a longer wheelbase than a Samurai. The days of flatfenders/CJ5s running the trails is long gone, and most rigs out there on the trails have a 90"+ wheelbase. Thus, many of the lines that others take or are marked will quickly tip over an 80" wheelbase Samurai. IMHO, Samurais are at a pretty big disadvantage on many of the harder trails at Moab.
You really have to pick your lines carefully (not follow others) and simply bypass obstacles that require a longer wheelbase. For the stock 80" Samurai wheelbase, I would much rather take a Samurai with an Old Man Emu spring/virtual lift/31" tires out there vs SPOA/33" tires. All IMHO.
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A basic SPOA and some front inner fender trimming will fit 33" tires.
Yes, you can drive a Samurai with 33" tires on the stock wheelbase at Moab, but it is far from an ideal setup IMHO. The Sidekicks (2dr and 4dr) with 31" tires do so much better than Samurais out there due to their longer wheelbase, wider track, and most importantly, the COG, which is much lower than a Samurai. I've been very impressed with them and what they can do out there.
Another thing is that all the new (or revised) trails at Moab are meant for vehicles with a longer wheelbase than a Samurai. The days of flatfenders/CJ5s running the trails is long gone, and most rigs out there on the trails have a 90"+ wheelbase. Thus, many of the lines that others take or are marked will quickly tip over an 80" wheelbase Samurai. IMHO, Samurais are at a pretty big disadvantage on many of the harder trails at Moab.
You really have to pick your lines carefully (not follow others) and simply bypass obstacles that require a longer wheelbase. For the stock 80" Samurai wheelbase, I would much rather take a Samurai with an Old Man Emu spring/virtual lift/31" tires out there vs SPOA/33" tires. All IMHO.
I really appreciate all of the great information. I can't tell you how many Wrangler Unlimitteds were in Moab, they seemed to be on every corner and trail. I would agree that the short wheelbase is always going to be a hinderance for the Sami. But for some reason I respect the size of the Sami and can deal with some of the limitations.
31s are way easier to justify. Not as much lift, lesser drive line angles, better gearing options and of course putting it all togeather will cost less too.
We used to run old flat fenders on the trails when I was younger. When the first family member got a CJ5 and then CJ7, most of the family switched over too. Are Samis that tippy? I guess I never thought about the COG being that high on a Sami.
Thanks,
Rob
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By the way, can you give me more details on what you consider a "virtual lift" to be?
Rob
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Samurais are no more tippy than a CJ5, but the trails have become a lot more extreme since you were younger. Fuel injection, lockers, super low gearing, along with much bigger tires means that trails that were once hard in an old Jeep, are a cake walk now and people want to be challenged. I would say that the trails have changed a lot in intensity in just the last 10 years as the sport has gone much more extreme.
A virtual lift is simply trimming the wheelwell sheetmetal so that a larger tire can fit.
http://www2.izook.com/?page_id=460 (http://www2.izook.com/?page_id=460)
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For example, here is an obstacle at Moab that can't be run with a Samurai with an 80" wheelbase. I believe this is on Hell's Revenge.
Discovered the name-Tip Over Challenge. Yep.
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I remember that there were quite a few trails that long wheel base trucks sure had an advantage on when I was growing up. I should have paid more attention back then, but when you are young you just live from hill to hill or puddle to puddle.
We drove by Hells Revenge on the Sand Flats road. I remember the trail from a time before it had the name. Actually, a lot of the trails are either named differently or actually have names now. Back 30 years ago, not many of them had been fomalized.
Actually, Moab has changed a lot since I lived there. More than the average town by a long way. Once the MTB guys found it, things moved really fast. I suspect some of it has happened since the internet, but the mountian bikers really put Moab on the map 20 years ago.
I'm at kind of a crossroads. I can't improve my GV any more than what it is already without voiding every bit of warranty for the next 6 years. Of course a Jeep is not out of the question, but I really want to get away from having a car payment for a while. My wife's Lexus has been paid for for a few years, so that helps. But our first kids is going to college in 4 days. The other two kids will follow next year and the year after that. I figure I can build up a very nice Sami for $7-10k that should handle pretty much everything I would want to do at Moab and still be a daily driver. I can't do the same with a Jeep. Simplicity is what I am going for.
Rob
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I would enjoy the GV for what it is, a highway friendly, cross country type of vehicle. It can obviously handle a lot of the mild to moderate trails and it is much more comfortable on & offroad than the primitive Samurai. I just wish my GV didn't have all that extra body cladding that hangs down so low.
IMHO, it is a lot more difficult to build a Samurai that can run the trails and cruise at 70mph on the hwy than to build a GV to do the same. 70mph is about as fast as you will want to go in a Samurai as the 80" wheelbase handling gets pretty dicey beyond that. The Samurais do have their place though, which is why I have owned one since 1988. :)
I bet you could recite a pretty detailed, modern history of the Moab trails. 8) I think a lot of the more extreme trails have really come into use in the last 15-20 years and like you stated, were just an obstacle here or there with no names. Then as the offroading sport become more extreme and adventurous, trails were developed or refined to incorporate more and more extreme obstacles meant to test lockers, fuel injection, low gearing, suspension articulation etc.
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When I lived out there, uranium was the primary industry in the area. My step-dad worked in the mines as well as many uncles and second cousins. After the mining stopped, all the cleanup began and most of the miners that hadn't died went to work in the oil fields. When the clean up ended, ( it will never be cleaned up) he went to work in the salt mine at Potash. Now tourism is the main industry: biking, 4 wheeling and visitors from all over the world.
We didn't spend that much time on the slick rock or in the desert; just too damn hot and Jeeps didnt' have AC. Some of the family had IH Scouts, and they had AC. We spent a lot of time in the La Sal mountains camping/fishing/hunting. When we did go "Jeepin", we picked cloudy days and most of the time had to turn back because of flash floods.
Still, the trails are awesome and I'm really excited to get back to my roots. It has been years since I have been out on a true Moab trail. Fins & Things is the quintisential Moab traril. Sand, rocks, Slick Rock and rock crawling area all about Moab trails. No water crossings, no mud no trees to drive over, just good ole desert wheelin.
I would be content with 75mph. Maybe a diesel conversion would get me the power. Really what I need to do is just build a Sami up and then trailer it out there. Right now the GV is fine, but I would love to have a Sami.
Rob
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Your best bet is a 1.6 16-valve out of a Sidekick. I have the engine in the khaki Samurai above. It will do 75mph, but the handling isn't the best at that speed. IMHO, the top cruising speed in a Samurai is 70 mph.
Most Samurais do not have ac either. I know a few people that have installed ac with the 16-valve, but I haven't seen any in person so I cannot comment on how well it works. I usually drive mine open with just a safarai top, doors off, and sometimes even with the windshield down. A fullsize atv. 8)
I would drive a Samurai to see if it is what you really want. Samurais really are not much more refined or evolved from the old CJ that you grew up with. Even stock they are underpowered, and depending on the strength of the engine, have a top speed of 60-70mph. Much like the old Willys and CJ5s of the past.
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A very good discussion, guys, with some very good points made, thank you both.
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For example, here is an obstacle at Moab that can't be run with a Samurai with an 80" wheelbase. I believe this is on Hell's Revenge.
Discovered the name-Tip Over Challenge. Yep.
Actually, that is pretty easy in a Sammy as long as your locked and have low enough gearing to not stall out. While it was in 2004 we had three Sammy's that didn't have much of an issue.
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay1
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay2
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay3
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay4
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay5
I had an SJ-410 with SPOA and 33" tires, other two where 31" tires with a 4.8:1 and 6.5:1 with a rock block respectively. The only spot we really ran into issues was on the Rocker Knocker on Pritchet.
This last time I ran with the White Rabbit build, and it was a bit more comfortable wheeling then the SJ. :D
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Awesome pictures! I recognise almost everywhere but a few of the places on the trails. I know the trails have changed a bit since I was younger and run the trails as a kid.
So, with 33s you were OK? How did the guys do with 31s? Any real difference on the trail between the two different sizes?
Thanks,
Rob
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So, with 33s you were OK? How did the guys do with 31s? Any real difference on the trail between the two different sizes?
Thanks,
Rob
On normal trails the 31's where fine but armor was needed. The 33's made a noticeable difference in the lines I could take and how we hit things. A rig with 31" tires, a pair of lockers and some gears will go places a rig with 33's could never dream of. I'm a huge fan of ARB's vs normal lockers or spools if you can afford the swap.
JR makes a lot of good points though, you will really want to ride in a Samurai before going down that path. Mine was much nicer once I did an RUF and 4-linked the rear suspension. With the straight SPOA it was a bit rough of a ride. I sold it before I could give Moab a second shot.
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I appreciate the great info from both JR and yourself. I have found a nice Sami close to where I live (60 miles) and I am trying to get up there this weekend to take a look. I can decide then if this is something I want to drive on a daily basis.
The sad part is, if a Sami isn't good enough, I'm going to look at Jeeps. My brothers new JK is very nice and could most likely tackle most of the trails in Moab as long as it fits through openings on the trail. It is even fairly civilized going down the interstate at 75mph. I just hate to spend all of that money on something that will sit in my garage most of the time and be used as a toy when we have a chance to go to Colorado or Moab.
I can build a very nice Sami up with lockers, gears, bumpers, winch, lift, tires and protection for less than $10k. To step into a new JK I'm looking at around $40k to get the same. Then I would also feel horrible if I damaged a new rig on the trail, I might not feel as bad denting/scratching a 25 year old truck.
Rob
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Be careful with the Jeep thing. I have an 05 Wrangler Unlimited. I love a lot about it but I detest its gas mileage. I got too spoiled by my previous Trackers. The Jeep has averaged 15.6 mpg over two years.
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I am worried about that too. My brothrs 2012 JK Unlimited Rubicon on 35s averaged about 14mpg for the entire trip to Moab and back. Even with my cargo box on top and driving about 5-7mph over the speed limit, I still averaged almost 21mpg. 4 adults in the GV, fully loaded with a huge cooler in the back: with two cases of beer, 3 bottles of wine, two cases of soda, two cases of water bottles, food and a 20 lbs of ice. Luggage for all of us and temps in Nebraska/South Dakota/Wyoming/Colorado and Utah over 100 degrees. That was with all the backroads and wheeling we did too. I have to say the GV did very well on mileage.
Rob
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How has the GV done in general on gas mileage? Is your GV a 4 cylinder or a V6?
I also get more nervous about wheeling the Wrangler than I did the Trackers from a damage perspective.
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Mine is a 4cyl. I missed the v6 by a year and I really wanted the v6 along with all the extra goodies you got. The 4cyl were de-contented somewhat; no back up camera, puddle lamps, home link system... They also took out the hill desent control.
The GV gets an indicated 18.2mpg around town most of the time. My trips are very short and if I drive more than 2 miles at a time, it always gets better. I say an indicated 18.2mpg as I have larger tires on the truck and have to add 7% to make up for the difference. It woks out to be about 19.4 mpg. When I manually figure the mileage when filling up, I notmally get about 19.2 mpg so the computer is normally off about 2-3 tenths of a mpg.
I don't drive very fast in town, only on the interstate/hwys. Around Lincoln Nebraska where I live, we don't have a lot of hills and we are only about 1200' above sea level. The conditions are right for decent gas mileage.
Going down the interstate at 65 mph without the box and roof bars on top, I see about 24mpg real numbers. All in all, it does a nice job.
I'm going to be selling it once I find a good Sami to build up or at least that is my plan. My wife may have other ideas about what we do. She should be happy though, we paid off the new Lexus she drives last year so eliminating an other car payment would sure be nice.
Rob
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How is the power with the 4 cylinder? Adequate or slow? I'd assume it is not fast.
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I would say it still feels fairly peppy, even with the larger tires. I notice the lack of passing power on highways the most troublesome. The initial throtle tip in makes it feel quicker than it realy is. I only had the stock tires on for about a month, but really didn't notice any negative effects other than braking distances and road noise. Power still was good, traction was way up, cornering didn't suffer, ground clearnce was way better, it looks better and I actually think driveablilty is overall better.
Rob
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just a few more pictures from the trip:
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010699.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010685.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010626.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8010631.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8020888.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8020882.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/Mbfan3686/P8020880.jpg)
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For example, here is an obstacle at Moab that can't be run with a Samurai with an 80" wheelbase. I believe this is on Hell's Revenge.
Discovered the name-Tip Over Challenge. Yep.
Actually, that is pretty easy in a Sammy as long as your locked and have low enough gearing to not stall out. While it was in 2004 we had three Sammy's that didn't have much of an issue.
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay1
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay2
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay3
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay4
https://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/2004MoabDay5
I had an SJ-410 with SPOA and 33" tires, other two where 31" tires with a 4.8:1 and 6.5:1 with a rock block respectively. The only spot we really ran into issues was on the Rocker Knocker on Pritchet.
This last time I ran with the White Rabbit build, and it was a bit more comfortable wheeling then the SJ. :D
Nice pics. I noticed some of the trails have very nice dwarf trees that can be transformed into beautiful bonzai plants. A few of those plants can command prices up to 4 digits, enough to buy a nice looking sami.
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Most of those cedar trees and sage brush are a lot bigger than you think, but some of the small seedlings could be twisted and tormented into a Bonzai fairly easy.
For those of you that haven't been to Moab, it is totally worth the trip. Even if you don't spend a minute on the trails, the scenery is beautiful.
Rob
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One thing I recommend is going to the national parks and watching the intro movie to the area. One of the things you want to avoid is walking on any dirt or off the trails if at all possible. If you break the crust that has built up you can cause a lot of damage.
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Moab has a very nice visitor center right on main street. They have a ton of information about the area.
It's been a ling time, but I believe taht Arches has a video at the park entrance. For those of you that go to the west side of Moab, Dead Horse State park has a nice vistor center too. My uncle was the park ranger/super when I was younger. I spent a lot of time there when I was younger.
The area is so diverse. It's one of my favorite places.
Rob