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ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: Perryd on August 15, 2012, 02:48:10 PM
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So, my 4x4 is still working and not working periodically, hoses seems fine, pump runs, etc. I was wondering if anyone ever permanently engaged the front difl and installed manual hubs successfully, and had it hold up. i've searched for this under a few titles but cant find much on it, though i have heard of it before. i would like to try it out if its a good setup because i'd like to have the reliability of a simpler 4x4 system.
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Seems quite common to install manual hubs such as a set of warns. I read somewhere, where a guy made a brass spacer that kept his front diff actuated. Im assuming it was just a simple plate to keep it engaged and not allow it to retract.
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yeah the warns add a few style points too. i'm looking for a write up of how someone would do something like that, someone must know!
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there is a guy on here that installed two ty-rap's end to end to hold the ring engaged. when i put gears in mine i am going to weld mine in place. i seen a write up where some welded theres. no sure if it was on this form or not, i think it was though.
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as for free wheeling hubs im running samurai ones on my 01 tracker for a year now. the only problem i had was when i first in stalled them i left the cone washer's off and they came lose. after installing the cone washer's i haven't had a problem.
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I got this idea off another guy on the forum who had welded his front end. Not the spider gears... but welding the air actuator ring to the the main dif ring gear. Four very small tac welds holds it in place just fine. I have over 10K+ miles to date since these mods, including installing the Warn manual hubs. I'm glad I did. No regrets. Failure of my air pump or bladder is now out of the equation as well as the expense of replacing them. Far more dependable.
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-grand-vitara-vitara-chevy-tracker-(gen-2-platform)-1999-2005/suspension-upgrade-33541/ (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-grand-vitara-vitara-chevy-tracker-(gen-2-platform)-1999-2005/suspension-upgrade-33541/)
Basically, when you pull the front diff out, then you gently pry, then wedge, the spring loaded cog over towards the ring gear as far as it will go, hold it in place and tac weld inside the four depressions around the ring gear. The critical piece is ensuring your cogs are fully meshed, engaged and interlocked. It is possible to NOT get them fully engaged before tac welding them. Then plug off your air hose going to the front diff. Bingo! You now have a mechanically engaged front wheel drive. This ISN'T the same as welding the spider gears. You end up with an open diff drive in the front just like you had with the air actuated front end. Installing the manual hubs allow you to "unlock" the axles so your CVs aren't turning all the time... which will reduce the wear on the passenger side diff housing seal. Plus, you can run in 2-Lo without being locked in 4WD, which comes in handy occasionally as well. Especially if you are running a locker in the rear.
If you elect to mount some manual hubs (Warn) take the time to mount them with some studs and stainless or nickle plated ny-locks. Down farther in the thread there is a piece on the need for studs (versus bolts) as well.
Oh yeah, I've heard guys say unlocking the front hubs doesn't affect their gas milage... it does for me! MPGs are 'more better' when unlocked.
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from what i heard any manual hub off any year tracker,sidekick,sunrunner and vitara should fit. and sum samurai as well. for the air pump set up i never had issues with it yet, i have relocated the pump next to the air pump so it wont get as much water and mud. i just put on longer air pipes. actualy yes, only once i had an issue witch the pump was running fine and no leak in the lines. i soon found out wen i pull the air feed line next to the pump that i saw that it has sucked mud in the pump. i changed the pump and it worked. i run 33" tires by the way. id think if there is issues with these diff id had them a wile ago.
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The diffs do work and run great. They are built fairly tough (typical Suzuki engineering... which is grossly under rated within the automotive industry IMHO). It is the air pumps and the air diaphragms built into the diff cluster that give out... usually without prior warning. If you experience electrical problems and your pump doesn't get juice, you will experience the same results. When they do, you are rear wheel drive only. If you don't have a lockler in the rear then you are ONE wheel drive. These aren't easy trail side fixes when they break, especially the air diaphragm.
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so are you saying that you don't need to install manual hubs in order to get rid of the air engaged 4x4?? also did you say you need to pull the front dif out all together to get at the actuator ring and main dif rings? or can you just remove the cover? sorry for my lack of axle/dif etc. knowledge lol
I got this idea off another guy on the forum who had welded his front end. Not the spider gears... but welding the air actuator ring to the the main dif ring. Four very small tac welds holds it in place just fine. I have over 10K+ miles to date since these mods, including installing the Warn manual hubs. I'm glad I did. No regrets. Failure of my air pump or bladder is now out of the equation as well as the expense of replacing them. Far more dependable.
[url]http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-grand-vitara-vitara-chevy-tracker-(gen-2-platform)-1999-2005/suspension-upgrade-33541/[/url] ([url]http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-grand-vitara-vitara-chevy-tracker-(gen-2-platform)-1999-2005/suspension-upgrade-33541/[/url])
Basically, when you pull the front diff out, then you gently pry, then wedge, the spring loaded cog over towards the ring gear as far as it will go, hold it in place and tac weld inside the four depressions around the ring gear. It doesn't take much. Then plug off your air hose going to the front diff. Bingo! You now have a mechanically engaged front wheel drive. This ISN'T the same as welding the spider gears. You end up with an open diff drive in the front just like you had with the air actuated front end. Installing the manual hubs allow you to "unlock" the axles so your CVs aren't turning all the time... which will reduce the wear on the passenger side diff housing seal. Plus, you can run in 2-Lo without being locked in 4WD, which comes in handy occasionally as well. Especially if you are running a locker in the rear.
If you elect to mount some manual hubs (Warn) take the time to mount them with some studs and stainless or nickle plated ny-locks. Down farther in the thread there is a piece on the need for studs (versus bolts) as well.
Oh yeah, I've heard guys say unlocking the front hubs doesn't affect their gas milage... it does for me! MPGs are 'more better' when unlocked.
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nprecon post was the one i seen about the welding (nice write up by the way ;D). and you don't have to install locking hubs up front but it is a good idea if you want to prevent unnecessary wear on cv joint and diff bearings. on suzuki's there are no diff covers so you have to remove the axle's to separate the diff so you can get at the internals. as for removing the diff after you remove your side axle's and drive shaft ther are only three more bolt and it is out, there not hard to remove. i would also suggest reinforcing the front mount if it is an aluminum housing.
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zuki709 answered your questions very well. There are 4 bolts on the passenger side and 3 on the driver side that support the housing that will have to be removed too. Easy access. It is all doable in your driveway with basic tools, minus the tac welding of course. This needs to be done by a competent welder. You just need SMALL tac welds, NO large beads. you don't want to super heat your ring gear. In fact, two on the opposite sides would probably work... but I had all four done. Dave (my welder) could weld bubble gum.
Be careful working with your springs. Take your time and keep your fingers, hand, and other body parts out of harms way and unload all the tension off them you can by removing/dropping suspension parts.
Your axles will probably be stubborn coming out. A yoke or "Y" shaped pry bar made out of 1/4" steel is useful. Rotate your CVs between prying and tapping/beating on the pry bar to help the c-clip center up. Don't forget your driver side inner axle has to be removed as well.
Once you pull your axles out and the housing is free from the truck, loosen the bolts (10 of them?) holding the diff to the housing about half way, then lay a couple of short 2X4s on the ground 7-8 inches apart, then lay the housing on one half and the tail of the diff on the other, place one foot on the seam and slowly and gently start putting your weight on the seal between the two and the sealant bead will release on the bottom. You can remove the bolts from there and separate the two easily. Also note the bolts are all the same size except for two, one at about the 11 o'clock position and the other at about 5 O'clock, as I recall.
Don't forget to drain your front diff before hand and have several layers of newspaper under the housing and diff as you split them. There will still be some in the housing and gear oil is hard to clean up from concrete.
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thanks a lot guys, this is some really good info. gonna try get at it asap so sick of 2wd!!
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when i took my front diff out i let the main bolt that are holding it to the chassis you can see them in the wheel wells. i didn't want to take the bolts out of the housing. a also didn't let any suspension go. i simply on bolted the driver side cv, then when i let all the mounts go i poped the other cv out when i was lowering the housing ;D saved a litlle time there.
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That's true. It would be "more better" to get a buddy in there with you to help man-handle the housing. It isn't terribly heavy, just awkward, especially if you remove the housing from the passenger CV as zuki709 suggested. An extra set of hands never hurts.
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Isn't there a way you could put a metal rod into the air fitting to push on the actuator mechanism and keep it engaged without having to open up the diff? I had a 2nd gen Tracker in the past but no longer do.
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that's very interesting, i'll have to go try that out before it gets taken apart, much easier!
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Isn't there a way you could put a metal rod into the air fitting to push on the actuator mechanism and keep it engaged without having to open up the diff? I had a 2nd gen Tracker in the past but no longer do.
I doubt it - the air fitting is on the bottom of the diff housing and connects to the actuator internally with a rubber hose.
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i have on in my garage i'll take a look at it tomorrow. it is taken out of the housing but from what i can remember you would have to slide the ring over to get it engaged. there is a diaphragm that pushes the ring over. by sticking a rod in through the air fitting you would not get the ring to slide over the full diameter. full diameter of the ring has to be pushed over to be engaged. so if you could slide the rod in you would only have pressure on the bottom part no enough to engage the diff. but i will look at it tomorrow well im picking at stuff in the garage.
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if i remeber my camera i will take a pic or video to show how it functions. i alway find it easier to understand stuff better when you can see it.
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In the first pic you can see the air line hose where it hooks into the air actuator collar inside the diff. In the second pic you can see the metal air line (removed in my hand) that threads into and passes thru the diff housing to connect to the air hose running into the air actuator collar. When inflated that collar inflates evenly and pushes /engages the cogs within the diff.
The third pic shows the hose (in the middle of the pic) that connects the two air nipples inside the diff.
That's why running a line thru the air line probably wouldn't work well for engaging the cogs effectively and reliably.
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Thanks for the pics. That is quite a complex setup. Both of my 2nd gens were relatively new so I never had any issues with the mechanism. How common is it for it to go out as they get older?
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Ahhh - how do I put this - I don't think failed actuators were a common problem - but - at the same time, I am aware that the free wheel clutch assembly was a known weak point, and there are actually two possibly three different versions as Suzuki made a number of improvements along the way - even the aluminum housing and third member have been redesigned.
I have an Africa market 98 (North America was the last to get the second gen), and the only problem I have experienced (with the 4WD) is a failed air pump
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I agree with Fordem. The actuator within the diff appear to be pretty durable. The air pumps are prone to moisture penetration and corrosion on the internal wiring contacts. Fordem (I believe) had a thread on disassembling and repairing them. I have re-soldered a corroded contact in one and brought it back to life. The small diaphragms in them can also rupture preventing them from compressing/pumping air as well.
Out of three air pumps I have worked on, one had a corroded connector which allowed a wire to literally separate causing the pump to fail and a second had a ruptured diaphragm. The corroded wire was repairable, the diaphragm wasn't. On the third pump, the mounting bracket had been severely bent from impact of a collision. The actual pump still worked perfectly. All three had inidications of moisture penetration of the housing with associated corrosion to various degrees inside the housings through the seals or where the wires entered the pump housings. This with the fact the pumps are tucked away from the elements pretty well behind the bumper. Of course if the operator run their truck thru open streams/puddles/creeks bumper deep... the pump is down in the water.
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I suppose yet another thought/idea to improve the reliability factor of the air actuated front diff would be to replace the factory stock air pump with regulated air pressure provided from say... an ARB type, more durable/reliable aftermaket compressor that could be mounted under the hood, up on the inside fender by the driver's hood hinge. That placement wouldn't work if your truck has ABS, though. Still, its another idea. Plus the pump could also be used for onboard air for out on the road or trail.
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is it an air pump or vaccum pump, the stock unit? could i hook one of the hoses into the engines vaccume lines?
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Why, after reading a thread that talks about air pumps, and even suggests using air from a compressor, would you ask if it's an air pump or a vacuum pump? If you don't believe what's already been written, why would you believe a fresh answer?
It's an air pump, and yes, you can hook one of the hoses into a vacuum line, but, don't expect it to engage with a vacuum, it needs positive pressure.
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why ask? to learn. also because the pewney hoses are not clamped- they look like vaccum lines. most positive pressure hoses are clamped, to prevent leaks. i figured id ask because i sold my "air" pump to a needy customer. there are 2 hoses so maybe if i put vaccum to the opposite line it might stay engaged? im going to add locking sidekick hubs later- and its only a mud toy.
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The only place there are two hoses are at the pump itself - an intake that runs up alongside the radiator support, and the outlet to the differential - the system works with 6~10psi, no need for clamps - and the only way to make it stay engaged without the air pump is to remove it and tack weld it in the engaged position.
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thanks for the info. i will likely get another pump and possibly relocate it higher- away from the mud
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or change diff gears and get away from sotf
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Junk-Yard-John are you on http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/ (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/) ? good place to ask questions. this place has a couple dicks around here that feel better about their selves by making ignorant comments. much nicer and knowledgeable people over there.
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We/they aren't dicks. I have found over eight years that the guys on this forum are actually very helpful and knowledgeable guys. The guys on this forum have been very helpful to me (and hundreds of others) since I joined in 2007.
I didn't read any ignorant comments in this thread. Just questions, answers, observations and advice. You can find knowledgeable people on several forums. Just don't be thin-skinned about reading responses within the conversation. Think about what they are telling you and weigh the information. Consider the actual accuracy of the responses to your question/s. We/they are really decent fellows. I think you received honest and accurate responses.
It's really all in how you read and perceive the responses. These are discussion forums. I haven't found any one person here (or zuwharrie) who claim to have all the answers to all questions (and there are some very smart guys on both forums). Opinions? Everyone has one. I guess this is mine.
You will find MANY of the zukiworld "guys" over on the zuwharrie forum as well, under different names. I am recon on zuwharrie, for example. My experience is the zuwharrie forum is great as well. Bkiller is a knowledgeable great guy and moderator. So is Whitfield. This is just a really great collective community of people with a common interest in owning and modifying these little trucks from all over the world. Each has something to add to the forum.
All of these forums are like information supermarkets. You pick that which you need and browse the rest. There are many interesting and knowledgeable people and threads to be found.
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Junk-Yard-John are you on [url]http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/[/url] ([url]http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/[/url]) ? good place to ask questions. this place has a couple dicks around here that feel better about their selves by making ignorant comments. much nicer and knowledgeable people over there.
no i am not. i find most info i need here or google. i dont mind opinions from others- i dont take everyones to heart lol.
i got a newer air pump actutor free after i sold mine to a guy in-need. i have yet to mount the new one because ive been busy fabricating a bio-mass rocket stove, but i think i will re-locate the new pump up higher soon.
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Wait a sec...the Tracker uses air PRESSURE and not vacuum to engage 4wd? This probably explains the noise I heard when I engaged 4wd a few days ago when we hit some snow--it sounded like when a dry leaf gets into the heater blower. 4wd seemed to work fine, and the noise eventually went away, but I still heard it in 2wd, and it got louder as vehicle speed increased. Y'think the noise indicates the pump is getting ready to fail?
'00 Tracker 2-door rust bucket handed down from my sweetie
'00 Tracker 4-door, clean, that she now drives to work
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Y'think the noise indicates the pump is getting ready to fail?
Nope - the pump is a tiny little thing mounted on the back of the front bumper (look directly below the right radiator support) - it should never run in 2WD, or for more than 10 seconds at any one time.
It also, in my experience, never warns you of impending failure - it just fails, leaving you with no front wheel drive.