ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: WVzuk on October 17, 2015, 07:12:07 PM
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Ok, so I think it's high time to add a winch to my Zuk. After almost getting stuck several times and wishing I had 33" tires, I decided it would be cheaper to just get a winch than to do all the mods it would take to accommodate such tires :laugh:. I understand the sidekick is light so what poundage rating would need for the winch? I have seen anywhere from about 8000lbs to 12000. Right now there is a 12000 pound one at Harbor fright for $299. I has gotten pretty good reviews but I'm thinking maybe I should spring for a better one like a Warn.
Also I am currently running the stock front bumper without the cover. I can weld. What are the basic mounting requirements? Do they just bolt on after drilling a few holes? I could fab something up to make the stock bumper accommodate the winch.
What are some of your experiences with owning and mounting winches?
Thanks
Jon
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I have a harbor freight 12000 on my samurai, love it.It always get me out. I'd say go for the wireless remote, I like it. To mount it I bought the harbor freight mount and put a 2" receiver hitch on the front end. Now I can slide it out and use it for other things also.
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I have a 8000# smittybuilt on the front of my 2002 alittle much for the truck but if I need to pull someone else out its good, but for self recovery I would just go with a 6000# just cause the weight of the 8000# and I build my own bumper
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No real need to go more than 8,000 on a rig like these. I've heard stories of people putting 12,000 and 15,000 capacity winches on rigs only to ruin the frame because the truck just can't take that kind of force. This would happen when a little rig tries to pull out a stuck one-ton truck or something, or if you're trying to winch out a tree that just won't budge.
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With all my modifications, my 2 door Tracker with me in it weighs 3,020 lbs. Technically a 6000# winch has twice the capacity to lift my Tracker off the ground. That capacity is only at full spool, then the capacity drops with each layer of line off the spool.
Consider that 3,000# on four 1 foot pads (exaggerated) probably doesn't have half that resistance. The only way that you can pull more weight/resistance than your rig is to anchor it to more weight/resistance. When stretching your rig between two or more points it is easy to tweak the frame if done improperly. More is not always better (if you have it then you will be able to use it).
The real advantage to larger rated winches is spool size. The smaller spools means the less distance it will pull without straps, ropes, cables, or chain. Which means more gear needed.
A slower winch is slow (not that we are impatient, it is just slower), and slow is only what we want when things get critical, until that point faster is always better (right).
A winch is only used or needed when things go wrong (rarely if we are doing a good job of driving, or once a year).
I have a 8,000 HF winch and have used it lots of times. It was used and cheap (cheap is bonus points), and seems a very capable winch for me.
This is installing the first of 5 30'-40' bridges that we couldn't disturb the creek when installing.(http://)
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Thanks for the advice everyone.
Brdhunter- I went with the Smittybuilt 9500lb winch. With the synthetic rope it weighs uner 50lb. I was looking for one between 6-8000lbs per the advice given in this thread but this was by far the best deal with synthetic rope. There aren't many options between 6-8000 it seems. I will be mindfull that its overkill for my truck and not to pull anything too big.
Thanks
Jon
Now trying to figure out the mounting.
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The "rope/cable layer" point brd hntr makes is significant. You normally get the full rated pulling weight capacity of the winch off of the first layer of rope/cable on the winch spool and then the pulling weight rating steps down progressively for each additional layer of rope/cable on the spool to about a third of the winches actual rated pulling weight on the last layer of cable on the spool.
For short distance pulls having and using a pulley block adds back some of the pulling power you lose during a short cable pull, depending on the angle of the pull. Using a pulley block causes you to pull more rope/cable off the winch to reach the anchor point (whether it is your vehicle's bumper or another tree or anchor point) so you have more pulling power coming from your winch and then the pulley block further increases the power of the pull.
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. That capacity is only at full spool, then the capacity drops with each layer of line off the spool.
I think you have it backwards...greatest pull
capacity comes with least wraps
sent from an anus from an asus
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ok weight per pull is about right , my question is what cca on battery you running ...just cause my battery wont recharge after winch use so im thinking bigger cca and bigger alternator for 2nd gen tracker
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I run a Smittybilt XRC 9500 comp winch and i had to swap the stock alternator to a GM 12si type and replace the battery.I went with a PowerMasters 150 amp alternator with a smaller pulley(as these alternators come with their own dyno output card) because it putout 154 amps at 7500rpm...!!! on the low end it did 94 amps at 2400 rpm,which they called idle.(???)Anyway I figured the smaller pulley got it putting out around 80 amp at 1000 rpm(idle) and max out at 4500 rpm.Plus these alternators are the one wire type so,there isnt any wiring nitemares.LOL
The battery i went with is an Optima blue top marine(870cca) with duel top terminals which made hooking everything up super easy and clean.I wanted to try the Odyssey PC1500 duel terminal dry cell battery as its lighter and has a awesum warranty but it was nearly $145 more than the one i got.
This setup works great. I run all the rope off the winch ,turned headlights, radio,and lightbars on.With engine at idle the winch never slowed like they do when starving for power nor did the lights dim. Almost ayear later and everything still work'n great.
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I run a GM 2 wire and and interstate deep cycle marine battery. ...xrc8
sent from an anus from an asus
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what does it take to run a gm alternator (I.E ,bracket different wiring) I was think of running dual batteries and run the winch off just one battery and lights and everything else of main. was just going to run battery cables to other battery so that it stays charged. like + to + and - to -. I think my battery is ony 650 CCA so im thinking higher would be better
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You're going to need to do a lot more research on dual battery systems...
Very briefly - if you parallel the batteries, which is what you are proposing with the positive~positive & negative~negative connections, both batteries are connected to all the loads, so the winch will be running off of both batteries, and so will the lights & everything else.
There is a lot more than meets the eye to dual battery systems, and unless you're going to isolate them and use some sort of DC-DC charger, you'll need to use batteries of similar chemistry & capacity, or risk reduced battery life.
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. That capacity is only at full spool, then the capacity drops with each layer of line off the spool.
I think you have it backwards...greatest pull
capacity comes with least wraps
sent from an anus from an asus
You are correct. The greatest pulling strength is the first layer on the spool.
Nprecon a snatch block will only increase your pulling strength if it comes back to your rig. Otherwise it will only change the angle of your pull.
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You are correct. The greatest pulling strength is the first layer on the spool.
Nprecon a snatch block will only increase your pulling strength if it comes back to your rig. Otherwise it will only change the angle of your pull.
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Agreed Brd Hntr. I coulda/shoulda worded my thought 'more better'. The point I was trying to make was that using a block requires you to pull more rope/cable length from your winch (increases the length of cable/rope needed)... which restores more of the rated mechanical power of your winch because you will be pulling from less layers of cable/rope on your spool. Which supports the other point of: less layers of rope/cable on the winch spool = more of the winch's rated pulling power.
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Winch WARN 8274..best winch for Zuk :)
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A little too tall and "in your face" for my liking - and the height forces you to mount it well forward, which can cause issues with the weight - compare that to a good low mount that can be tucked away, out of sight, behind the bumper.
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having and install this WARN 8274 for years..and no mount problem or anything you have wrote :)
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Now trying to figure out the mounting.
When mounting your new winch, be aware of how much change you will be creating in your approach angle. It does get frustrating beating the bottom of your new winch mount on ditches and rocks you had no problem climbing through/over. So tucking it into grill and above bottom of bumper is better.
I made my winch mount out of a piece of 7" channel iron I had on hand. Way to much overkill, and weight. I would say go with one of the universal mounts and build from there.
Here is the last quick bumper winch mount we built. (It helps to have access to a tubing bender.) A lot better approach angle than my heavy duty bumper.
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x2 with brd I changed my winch mount and flipped it higher and my approach angle gain was awesome... I yet have to hit it going through deep cross ditches when I figured that I would
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having and install this WARN 8274 for years..and no mount problem or anything you have wrote :)
This may be one of those things that you have to experience personally to understand - your car is already so modified that you probably couldn't or wouldn't feel the difference, and since it appears to be a dedicated off road vehicle, it may also be a matter of you simply want/need the advantages of the high mount winch and are willing to accept the disadvantages that come with it.
You're adding 100+ pounds of winch & cable, along with another 75~150 of mount/bumper to the very front of the vehicle - in your case well out in front of the vehicle - this added weight affects the way the vehicle rides, the way it handles and the way it steers - you HAVE to compensate for it with either stiffer springs or coil spacers (both of which have their own impact on ride & handling), but they can only correct the loss of ride height, the effects of the additional weight on the vehicle's center of gravity and it's effect on the vehicle's handling will still remain, and will still be felt - the vehicle will be nose heavy and have a tendency to wallow.
Here are a couple of commercially available low mount designs - just so that you can get an idea of what can be done with a low mount winch - the first is by Taubenreuther of Germany, and the mount incudes a front skid plate that distributes the pulling forces between the front of the frame rails and the lower cross member - this actually pulls forward & up - it accommodates most of the Warn low mount winches, and the winch fits between & below the frame rails and behind the factory bumper box reinforcement.
(http://suzuki-grandvitara.info/cms/images/stories/tech/winchmount/tbr_winchmount.jpg)
The impact on approach angle is minimal (as compared to a stock vehicle) and the added weight is kept low down and close in to the vehicle, thereby keeping the moment of inertia and it's effects on handling & steering as low as possible, the actual winch is out of sight reduces the possibility of theft & tampering.
(http://www.afn.pt/uploads/product_images/3421.jpg)
Here's another one, this is from AFN in Portugal, since it is a full plate bumper, it's obviously going to be heavier than the Taubenreuther, but the winch is again mounted in between the frame rails and behind where the box reinforcement would have been. This bumper also does not reduce the approach angle, the lowest part of it sits higher than that of the factory plastic bumper - the front tow loop, which passes through the factory bumper, passes below this one.
If I ever get around to completing my design it will probably be similar to the AFN in appearance, with the winch mounted in between the rails but "feet forward" as this allows thinner (and lighter) metal to be used whilst still maintaining adequate strength.
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Thanks for all the replies. I made a winch mount out of 1/8" walled 2x4 steel. I used a harbor freight universal winch mount and mounted it even with the bottom of the bumper so, high. I didn't want to lose any approach angle since my 4door sidekick only has a 3" lift and 30" tires. The bumper weighs about 65 lbs and the Smittybuilt 9500 lb winch with synthetic rope supposedly weighs 48 lbs. So total is around 115lbs. Not too bad. I can feel a little difference in handling but not bad. The winch is really a lifesaver though. The two best mods I've done are the winch and a rear locker!
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having and install this WARN 8274 for years..and no mount problem or anything you have wrote :)
This may be one of those things that you have to experience personally to understand - your car is already so modified that you probably couldn't or wouldn't feel the difference, and since it appears to be a dedicated off road vehicle, it may also be a matter of you simply want/need the advantages of the high mount winch and are willing to accept the disadvantages that come with it.
You're adding 100+ pounds of winch & cable, along with another 75~150 of mount/bumper to the very front of the vehicle - in your case well out in front of the vehicle - this added weight affects the way the vehicle rides, the way it handles and the way it steers - you HAVE to compensate for it with either stiffer springs or coil spacers (both of which have their own impact on ride & handling), but they can only correct the loss of ride height, the effects of the additional weight on the vehicle's center of gravity and it's effect on the vehicle's handling will still remain, and will still be felt - the vehicle will be nose heavy and have a tendency to wallow.
Here are a couple of commercially available low mount designs - just so that you can get an idea of what can be done with a low mount winch - the first is by Taubenreuther of Germany, and the mount incudes a front skid plate that distributes the pulling forces between the front of the frame rails and the lower cross member - this actually pulls forward & up - it accommodates most of the Warn low mount winches, and the winch fits between & below the frame rails and behind the factory bumper box reinforcement.
([url]http://suzuki-grandvitara.info/cms/images/stories/tech/winchmount/tbr_winchmount.jpg[/url])
The impact on approach angle is minimal (as compared to a stock vehicle) and the added weight is kept low down and close in to the vehicle, thereby keeping the moment of inertia and it's effects on handling & steering as low as possible, the actual winch is out of sight reduces the possibility of theft & tampering.
([url]http://www.afn.pt/uploads/product_images/3421.jpg[/url])
Here's another one, this is from AFN in Portugal, since it is a full plate bumper, it's obviously going to be heavier than the Taubenreuther, but the winch is again mounted in between the frame rails and behind where the box reinforcement would have been. This bumper also does not reduce the approach angle, the lowest part of it sits higher than that of the factory plastic bumper - the front tow loop, which passes through the factory bumper, passes below this one.
If I ever get around to completing my design it will probably be similar to the AFN in appearance, with the winch mounted in between the rails but "feet forward" as this allows thinner (and lighter) metal to be used whilst still maintaining adequate strength.
That second photo looks very similar to my bumper, and when I was running on 30" tires I learned to approach obstacles at an angle so I could get past the bumper. Now with 33" tires (1 1/2" of lift from the tires) the approach angle is not an issue. The same could have been done by lifting the winch 1 1/2".
I didn't want to cut into the box reinforcement.