ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: nprecon on May 25, 2016, 08:37:03 AM
-
Developed a vibration at around 50MPH on Buster and the vibration continued to intensify as my speed increased through about 64MPH. My thoughts immediately went to my recent transmission rebuild but then the vibration didn't feel like it was centered in the gear box so I ruled that out. I decided to rotate my tires and check the suspension. I've had tires that produced a vibration... but then they typically did this when first mounted. I haven't had one suddenly develop a vibration unless the tire was damaged or defective.
I pulled the front tires and began checking the suspension and hubs. The passenger side appeared to be good... but the driver side had a LOT of lateral play in it. Well... there's my sign. Bad hub bearings.
I got my tools out and began stripping away the brake components and then unscrewed the WARN hub. As soon as I broke the last bolt loose the WARN hub released from the hub of the suspension. This is what I was looking at.
-
I haven't seen hubs this dry and rusty before. Thing is, I installed two new Moog hub assemblies at around 165K miles. So... this has all occurred within 35K miles. Additionally, I haven't had Buster off-road except to pull logs up a hill a few times. I haven't crossed any creeks or had him in any water except for driving in the rain and snow on the road. I never had this type of problem with Aisen hubs.
Note the sealing surface between the WARN locker and the hub assembly is clean. My inner knuckle seal was still intact and in great shape as well. The knuckle seals have been on the truck for about 50K miles. I installed new ones at around 151K miles. This tells me the moisture had to come from leakage in the WARN rotating cap.
-
I began disassembling the front hub to replace it. Here is a close-up of the bearing after I sprayed it with a half can of brake cleaner and then wiped some of the crud out it. Here is the locking nut too. I had to drill the four screws out of it to get the locking ring off. The screws were seized in place as well.
-
The hub assembly had also seized firmly onto the the spindle of the Tracker. I used a puller bracket and three 8X1.25 X110mm bolts along with a deep well socket to pull it off the spindle. I coaxed it along with a 1 1/2# hammer on the ears.
The inner bearing assembly still wouldn't let go of the spindle and so the bearing assembly separated into two pieces.
-
I removed the four bolts from the front spindle. I decided to pitch the dust cover because it was badly rusted and it wasn't going to last much longer.
I used my small press to press off the inner bearing race that was seized on the spindle using a large bearing press collar.
-
I cleaned all the parts up using the wire wheel on my grinder. I coated all the parts with some quality lithium axle grease. I even added some additional grease to the bearing assembly as well. I spread a thin layer of RTV between the spindle mounting surface, then tightened down the four bolts.
I used a small drill press to run the cut-off screws out the back side of the round bearing tension nut and so I was able to re-use the same bearing tension nut. These round bearing nuts cost $38 a piece at the dealer, and that was about six years ago. They are probably closer to $40-$45 now.
I torqued it to #158s using one of those Kent Moore specialty sockets with the four 6mm pins on it. It is difficult to hold the socket on while torquing to that value... so I used a cargo strap. I hooked one end under the control arm and the other to the coil spring and tightened the strap down against the head of the torque wrench to in order to hold it in position while I was torquing it. Of course that is a relative torque value. My torque wrench indicated it was #150+ pounds.
I was able to replace the four screws I drilled the heads off of at a local hardware store. A REAL hardware store... the kind that carries a vast assortment of screws and bolts... not the "yuppy" hardware stores that appear to be in vogue across America today.
Installed the washer and snap ring back on.
I applied a thin layer of RTV to the hub and then installed the OEM fixed hub locks. I'm done with the WARN locking hubs. They may be great products, but they didn't work well for me for this application. I'll pass on the WARN manual hubs.
-
I wouldn't blame the hubs right away. I put some RTV on the mounting surface when installing the hubs. There was actually a gasket on the sammy I took my hubs off.
Good write up for someone changing a wheel bearing too. Ever since I got rid of my OEM wheel bearings I haven't been able to get any life out of them. I wonder if I should use more grease next time.
Also, My dust/heat shields are pretty well shot too. Anyone know where to get a replacement? Can't find them fro the usual sources.
-
I used RTV to seal the WARN manual locking hubs to my hubs as well. The hub still just fell off into my hand once the last screw was removed. Usually the locking hubs require quite a bit of prying to remove. Not this one. Personally, I think moisture was penetrating through the rotating cap on the WARN manual hub lockers. I checked a while back with WARN to see if they offered a rebuild kit or seal for their hubs. They did not. Their solution was to purchase a new set of manual hubs.
I guess if I had really been trail driving my Truck hard and had it submerged in water a lot, I would expect some moisture penetration like this. If I drove him hard I would have been performing more preventive maintenance on him too. That wasn't the case this time. I've been pretty easy on the little fellow for quite a while now.
I totally agree with the OEM parts seeming having more longevity than after market parts. These Moog wheel bearing assemblies are still manufactured in Japan. I'll still use Moog parts, I'm just not going to be running any WARN hubs in the future. While I welded my front diff into the "locked" position, it is now just an open differential so other than the CVs turning constantly and maybe wearing the seals on the carrier a little more, he'll run OK with the factory fixed hubs.
The vibration was greatly reduced when I took him out for a drive, however, I still can feel and hear a little vibration/rumble. I suspect the passenger side is in bad shape as well. I ordered another new Moog hub to install on the passenger side of the truck. If the driver's side was as bad as it was, then I suspect the passenger side is little better.
Still, a couple new hubs (about $165 from Rock auto) and the Tracker will be running as smooth as ever. I still love this little tin can truck. Even with 208K miles on him, (after I replace the other front hub assembly) I'd hop in him and drive him anywhere tomorrow.
I did have a link for replacement splash shields for the front rotors on my old computer. I would have to fire it up again to see if the link is still on it and if those parts are still available.
-
I'll mention it, even though I don't think it's the point of moisture ingress in this case, it has been for other folks suffering from shortened bearing life, and may be what's at the root of Perry's problem - there are two seals behind the knuckle, and Norm has already mentioned it, the spindle/knuckle mounting surface needs sealant.
I've been running SuperWinch hubs (I think they are relabeled AVMs), for a number of years, and if I recall correctly, those have an O-ring seal around the actuator knob - I'm in water fairly often (Guyana means land of many waters), and so far I've had no problems. I have had the hubs off on a couple of occasions (to replace a CV boot, and also to change out the control arms) - there has been no sign of any moisture or rusting behind them, although the polished alloy outer surface shows some sign of pitting & corrosion.
Amazon has the SuperWinch hubs for $105, with free shipping.
Edit...
(http://www.bjsoffroad.com/assets/images/large/400518.jpg)
Although this is not the hub style that fits the Suzuki, it is typical of the SuperWinch hub construction - you can see the O-ring around the knob.
-
Thanks, Fordem. I will check them out.
They appear to be of a different design than the WARN manual axle hubs. The WARNs rotate almost 320 degrees from the lock to unlock positions. Appears at face value, that much movement would be an inferior design to a much smaller rotation.
I have an old (as in no longer manufactured) 9K Superwinch on my Jeep (EPSi9?) that still functions flawlessly, so it wouldn't surprise me that Superwinch would also market a quality manual hub locker.
-
You guys prob know the answer, but is the wheel bearing/knuckle/spindle different on the vitara's compared to the trackers. I was looking at the parts catalog and the tracker lists a hub assembly while the vitara lists a press in bearing. I have a set of complete vitara knuckles, and I would rather use them than the stock ones on my tracker now so I can to save money on wheel bearings.
-
Since you already have them, why not compare them and let us know.
I'm not that familiar with the Trackers (presumably you're referring to a 99 or later Tracker also), but I know the Vitara/Grand Vitara used both styles of hub, and I believe they are interchangeable.
-
A quick check/comparison on the Rockauto.com website tells me a 2002 GV uses the SAME hub assembly (Moog #513193) as the one my 2002 Tracker uses.
I didn't check the 2003 model year, but I'd bet nuts to donuts they are the very same. Web catalogs are our friends. They are free to boot!
-
I'd like to know if there is a difference between the GV spindle assembly versus the Tracker. That's an OEM part that I haven't found listed to compare yet. I doubt they are the same part, but it would make it so much easier to switch to a larger rotor and disc brake caliper for larger tires. I know I would have to move up to 16" rims, but I'm already considering those anyway. Running larger and heavier tires, I would like more braking capacity.
-
On the Suzuki side of things the 99+ 1.6 Vitara (Grand Vitara in non-US markets) uses a smaller brake which I suspect may be the one used on the Trackers, and according to the parts catalogue, the actual spindle is the same part as that used on the 2.5 V6 Grand Vitara - in fact, that same spindle has been in use since '89, on the 2WD Sidekicks, on the later models, it is used on both 2WD & 4WD.
It appears that the only things that would need to swapped on the 1.6 Vitara to get the bigger brakes are the actual brake components - disk rotors, dust shields & loaded calipers
-
"It appears that the only things that would need to swapped on the 1.6 Vitara to get the bigger brakes are the actual brake components - disk rotors, dust shields & loaded calipers"
That's the parts I was wondering about. I'm still running the original calipers on my Buster. Time and mileage tell me they too will need replaced in the not so distant future... so I was considering just purchasing the GV components when they need replaced.
This would keep the cost factor down a bit since I would already need to purchase new calipers... and rotors. So the caliper bracket would bolt right up to my Tracker's knuckle, as in the bolt holes are the same?
-
The spare wheel/hub/knuckles I have are form a 99 2.0 2 door vitara (stock 16" wheels). Wheel bearings for this are:
Timken 517009
CHEVROLET TRACKER 1998-2000
GEO TRACKER 1989-1997
SUZUKI GRAND VITARA 1999-2000
SUZUKI SIDEKICK 1989-1998
SUZUKI VITARA 1999-2000
SUZUKI X-90 1996-1998
On my 2003 2.0 2 door tracker it is the MOOG 513193 as you mentioned. This fits:
CHEVROLET TRACKER 2001-2004
SUZUKI GRAND VITARA 2001-2005
SUZUKI VITARA 2001-2004
SUZUKI XL-7 2002-2006
So it appears not to be a difference in models but in a redesign starting in 2001
all the same, look at these interesting part notes from rockauto when I pull up the details on wheel bearings for a
99. ACDELCO FW176 {#96057729} GM Original Equipment; Press-In Bearing Front; FOR 2001 USE Hub 30025890 W/ J41, OR USE Hub 30025891 WITHOUT J41, Bearings COME W/ HubS
When I'm home next week I'll upload some pictures. It's amazing how these have been out of production for 10 years but we are still trying to figure them out.
-
It's also worth nothing, 99-04 1.6/2.0 vitaras and 2.0/2.5 trackers share all part numbers related to front brakes, calipers pads and rotors are all the same.
on the other had grand vitaras, xl7s and sidekick sports share brake components, different from above.
So i wonder why the 99 2.0 vitara I had came with 16s?
-
So the caliper bracket would bolt right up to my Tracker's knuckle, as in the bolt holes are the same?
I don't recall a caliper bracket in the parts manual, I did look for it.
My car is in the body shop at this time (I was rear ended a few weeks back, no significant damage, but I decided to have it refinished), so I don't have the luxury of sticking my head underneath to confirm.
-
It's also worth nothing, 99-04 1.6/2.0 vitaras and 2.0/2.5 trackers share all part numbers related to front brakes, calipers pads and rotors are all the same.
Maybe on paper they do, but in reality they don't - in my neck of the woods, the 1.6 Vitara (they were badged as Grands) is the only one with the smaller brakes, the 2.0 has the larger brakes, and we never got the 2.5 V6 models - I was quite surprised when I discovered that US market 2.0s had the smaller brakes, and even more so, when I discovered that some of US 2.0s have small and others large.
-
Canada v6 trackers also have the smaller brakes and are available with 15" wheels. All the information I just gave was Canadian models.
-
AFAIK ALL Trackers have the small brakes and take 15" wheels, what I'm pointing out is that the 2.0 Vitaras may or may not have the small brakes.
-
can I swap out my tracker calipers and discs for the bigger 16" ones from a vitara since I have oversized wheels on my 01 tracker 2.0 2dr 4x4?
-
AFAIK ALL Trackers have the small brakes and take 15" wheels, what I'm pointing out is that the 2.0 Vitaras may or may not have the small brakes.
They also have "small brakes", they don't look any different and have all the same part numbers on every single resource I have checked online and otherwise (in North America).
can I swap out my tracker calipers and discs for the bigger 16" ones from a vitara since I have oversized wheels on my 01 tracker 2.0 2dr 4x4?
If you want bigger brakes and live in North America you need brakes from a GV or XL7 (or sidekick sport from my research?). I have no idea if they will bolt up to your knuckle though as I've never tried it.
Your Tracker has come quite a ways by the way, very nice. What brand/model of wheel are you running?
-
whats the advantage of 16" rims
-
A couple. First you can run a taller, narrower "pizza cutter" tire like a 235/85/16 or larger if you can work the clearance. Second you can find 8 and 10 ply tires that are tough as hell and durable for off-roading. Several companies make good MT and AT tires in the 16" rim size.
A typical 215/85/16 tire is 30" in diameter and less than 9.5 inches wide at the tread, which is typical width for just a 235/75/15 tire that is only about 28" diameter. A 235/85/16 tire is closer to 31 or more in diameter. A narrower tread foot print puts more pressure down on the road surface and, generally, provides better traction in snow and ice, but also does well in dirt, gravel and rock off-road.
I was looking at going with the 215/85/16 size tire. You can gain more ground clearance without gaining the additional weight of a larger AND wider tire.
The last benefit I can think of is being able to install the larger caliper and rotor which will give you more braking power to stop the bigger and heavier tires AND to assist in stopping when pulling trailers, especially when they are loaded down. Generally 60%+ of your vehicle's brake "stopping" "power" occurs in the front brakes.
-
AFAIK ALL Trackers have the small brakes and take 15" wheels, what I'm pointing out is that the 2.0 Vitaras may or may not have the small brakes.
They also have "small brakes", they don't look any different and have all the same part numbers on every single resource I have checked online and otherwise (in North America).
You seem not to get the point.
You're looking at resources, I'm looking at vehicles - the vehicle can be found with BOTH sizes of brake - you want to go by what the resources say, I'm cool with that - someone else reading this thread, may not be, when they find that what they thought would fit, doesn't.
Let me give you another discrepancy between the resources and reality - there are different calipers (at least two) used on the "large" brakes, they are physically interchangeable, but, take it from me, ordering parts, based on "resources", waiting for them to get your truck back on the road, and then discovering they are the wrong part, sucks.
Yup - buy local is the answer - except that the local AutoZone & Advance stores had the "wrong one" in stock too.
And by the way - the "resource" I use is the Suzuki dealer parts catalogue.
-
whats the advantage of 16" rims
Just my opinion - the sole advantage is that they clear the larger brakes which are needed for more stopping power, the disadvantage is that there is usually a wider range of tire size options available to fit a 15" rim.
I notice that Norm seems to prefer the tire choices open to him with the 16 rims, I would rather go wider than tall & narrow - this may be a function of where we drive - I'm running 225/70R16, because I could not get a 235/70R16 in an all terrain tread pattern, and have found that with the narrower tread, I can break the back loose with the slightest provocation (even with the lower gearing caused by the taller tire).
One word of caution - not all 16" rims will clear the calipers and it may take some searching to find ones that do.
-
Agreed. I was thinking of sourcing some used GV rims. Apologies, I stepped away from modifying my last entry for an hour or so and just came back to it. Feeding the animals :laugh:.
With the 16" tires, all I have to contend with is diameter. There should be little to no "width" clearance problems on the frame and no rubbing fenders when stuffing the suspension. Tire pressure has to be accounted for with 8 or 10 ply tires as well. With a fully loaded full size truck you have to run the higher tire pressures. With lighter trucks like ours, much less. I'm running 32PSI on my Jeep for rolling down the road on the 10 ply Toyos. I suspect I would be be running even less air pressure with a 10 ply on my Tracker, both for ride comfort and traction.
-
I pulled my front passenger hub on Buster today... and the bearing and hub looked perfect inside. Lots of fresh grease still in it. That WARN hub still locks in and out easily and there was zero signs of moisture contamination. I added some additional grease, cleaned up the surface mounting areas, RTV'd it again and re-installed the WARN. Yea... I now have an OEM fixed hub lock on my driver side front axle and a WARN manual hub on the passenger side. ???
Also... I noticed the WARN hub was in the locked position so I unlocked it, took Buster out for a test drive and no odd noises what so ever. He is as quiet as he can be with the tires I have on him. I drove to a graveled parking lot, locked the hub, placed the transfer case in 4LO and dumped the clutch pretty hard. Buster left four distinct areas where all four wheels were digging the crap out of the graveled surface. Appears he is good to go again.
On the bright side, I now have an extra hub assembly for when I need one in the future. If I don't need it for my Tracker, I have family who own Trackers who may.
-
Wow that one looks perfect. i bet you breathed a sigh of relief when you saw it. So i guess we can blame the warn hub after all? Since it the seals were good on this side.
AFAIK ALL Trackers have the small brakes and take 15" wheels, what I'm pointing out is that the 2.0 Vitaras may or may not have the small brakes.
They also have "small brakes", they don't look any different and have all the same part numbers on every single resource I have checked online and otherwise (in North America).
You seem not to get the point.
You're looking at resources, I'm looking at vehicles - the vehicle can be found with BOTH sizes of brake - you want to go by what the resources say, I'm cool with that - someone else reading this thread, may not be, when they find that what they thought would fit, doesn't.
Let me give you another discrepancy between the resources and reality - there are different calipers (at least two) used on the "large" brakes, they are physically interchangeable, but, take it from me, ordering parts, based on "resources", waiting for them to get your truck back on the road, and then discovering they are the wrong part, sucks.
Yup - buy local is the answer - except that the local AutoZone & Advance stores had the "wrong one" in stock too.
And by the way - the "resource" I use is the Suzuki dealer parts catalogue.
This is the last thing I am going to say about this because I'm getting off topic, but I have checked Suzuki parts catalogs too, as that was included in my resources, as well as rock auto and Canadian tire up here in Canada. 99-04 Vitaras (not grand or xl7) and 99-04 trackers have the exact same brakes. Look for yourself if you want to. I also scrapped a 99 vitara for my 2003 tracker and noticed no difference in brake size. So this tells me 2 things: the brakes are the same because how could there be this many mistakes, and there may be a difference in the way the brakes (mainly the caliper) mount. I respect you opinion, but some anecdotal evidence that they are different from a some guy on the internet on a different continent isn't going to change my mind.
-
So the caliper bracket would bolt right up to my Tracker's knuckle, as in the bolt holes are the same?
I don't recall a caliper bracket in the parts manual, I did look for it.
My car is in the body shop at this time (I was rear ended a few weeks back, no significant damage, but I decided to have it refinished), so I don't have the luxury of sticking my head underneath to confirm.
I picked up the car yesterday, the calipers bolt directly to the knuckle.
-
I respect you opinion, but some anecdotal evidence that they are different from a some guy on the internet on a different continent isn't going to change my mind.
You want anecdotal evidence from some guy on the internet on the same continent? It's there in the forum if you would care to look.
I'm not trying to change your mind - I'm trying to make sure that the other folks who read the thread are aware that SOME of the 2.0 Vitaras DO have the larger brakes.
-
"Wow that one looks perfect. i bet you breathed a sigh of relief when you saw it. So i guess we can blame the warn hub after all? Since it the seals were good on this side."
Not really. I was mentally set to replace the wheel bearing. I had all my tools drug out and had the new hub and when I saw it was still in cherry shape I was kinda let down. I was all cocked and locked to pull it. Yes, the WARN hub on the driver's side was the weak link that caused the premature bearing failure on the other side.