ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: sidekickyc on December 24, 2016, 10:18:24 AM
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1997 sidekick battery seemed bad~ Battery Replaced!~ battery not charging~Alternator Replaced!
Alternator working & Battery taking a charge!
1 day later~ Battery not being charged.
Remote location, freezing temps,
Where is the fuzeable link?
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Update on trouble shooting: Put a charge on battery~started the engine~removed ground wire from battery= Engine died.
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alternator bad ....I heard that you can get bad new ones take it back and try another
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I see no mention of any tests done, no list of voltages measured along with where or under what conditions they were measured - any attempt to diagnose and repair an electrical problem with this approach is going to end up being expensive - if you lack the tools and experience, seek help from someone who has, and no, that's not what you're doing here, you needs hands on assistance...
If you have a meter and know how to use it, only then can we help you.
Oh - to answer your question, Sidekicks don't have a fusible link as such, there is a main fuse - it's not your problem - if it was, there would be no electrical power, you wouldn't be able to start the car.
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I've done a continuity check, all three seem good, the red/white is good up to the firewall.
The new alternator worked for two days. I can test continuity, question is: Is this New alternator working or is there an open circuit elsewhere.
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A continuity check of what? All three what seem good?
There are two ways to check to see if an alternator is working, neither involves a continuity test - the first (and only true) way to test an alternator is to use an ampere meter to measure the output current into a known load, along with a voltmeter to measure the output voltage - few people have access to the equipment required to do this test; the second test is to measure the electrical system voltage and look at the way it changes in response to the loads placed on the system, this voltage test allows you to make certain inferences that can predict with a fair degree of accuracy whether the alternator is working or not.
It should be noted that you can have a good, new battery, a new, fully functional alternator, an electrical system in perfect working order and still have a no charge issue because of something as simple as a loose belt, you can have a good, new battery, a new, fully functional alternator, a charging system in perfect working order and still have a flat battery because of problems elsewhere in the electrical system.
Having the equipment and experience required to test and diagnose are what makes the difference, and if either that new battery or new alternator was not required because the original was defective, you will have already thrown away more than the cost of a basic test meter.
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fordem thankyou, The alternator is putting out over 14 Volts. The continuity, I mentioned, was re: the three wires coming from the alternator.
We are at our high desert ranch, while I am better tooled at our mountain ranch, I'm not completely without tools down here. I'm not entirely useless, I've been a mechanic for many year, now retired.
I want to thank you and the other fellows for the help given me when I installed this engine a year or two back.
Daughter works some 40 miles from away. Putting a new battery in at her place of employment seemed prudent, and when the engine was started, there in the parking lot, I removed the neg, battery cable and the engine, didn't miss a beat, kept running.
I thought the problem was solved. A few days later, the battery went dead, again at her work.
while it would have been nice to have her car here on the ranch, I went with wifey's suggestion and picked up a Alternator on the way, installed it~ again at her place of employment. The Alternator proved to be working the battery charged up nicely on the test drive but several days later the Alternator was no longer charging the battery~proven so~when the neg, cable was removed the engine would stop.
I have since ,tested or had tested, the Alternator and it is working, as I said 14+ volt.
And so I came by to check with guys who love and cherish these wee cars to see what I could see.
Tomorrow, Christmas, I plan to reinstall the original Alternator and maybe with some, been there help, from the people on this forum, put this thing right.
Merry, Happy, Holy Christmas to all within shout, best to you and all your loved ones!
Richard
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Just so that you're aware of it - disconnecting the battery cable on a vehicle whilst the engine is running creates voltage spikes, it might have been acceptable back when cars had little in the way of electronics, but, on a more modern vehicle (and yes, a 97 Sidekick can be considered modern), there's a good chance that you can destroy the ECU.
Next - an alternator putting out over 14 volts does not mean it's good or capable of charging the battery, without knowing how, when & where that voltage was measured the figure is meaningless - yes - you have output from the alternator, but is it enough to run the electrical loads of the vehicle, is it enough to run the electrical loads AND charge the battery. If you're going to use a voltmeter to verify that the charge system is working there needs to be a minimum of four voltage measurements taken, in a specific sequence and under specific conditions...
Right now I'd say you still have no idea if the problem is the battery not holding a charge, the alternator not charging the battery, or an electrical load discharging the battery.
Start with the engine off and all electrical loads off - measure the voltage at the battery terminals - it should be between 12~13V for a fully charged battery, the voltage could be less, depending on the age and state of charge of the battery.
Next start the engine and measure the voltage a second time - it should be 1~2V higher than the first measurement - the actual voltage is not critical, the increase is what you're looking for - this establishes the fact that the alternator is outputting current.
Now switch on the headlights, and if you have a/c turn that on also, if not switch the blower fan on - measure the voltage a third time - it should be between the first two measurements, if it drops lower than the first measurement, the alternator is not delivering as much current as it should.
Last step, bring the rpms up to around 3000 rpm and measure the voltage whilst holding the rpms up - the voltage should be above the third reading, and close to, or even slightly above the second - if it is you're getting the output you should.
Ideally there should be a fifth measurement taken but few people take the trouble, take the vehicle on a long drive, long enough to bring the battery up to a full charge and then, without switching the engine off, measure the voltage again, it should be between 13~15V - anything over that is a defective regulator.
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I took the Alternator into the Parts House where they tested it and said it to be good.
Question: The under hood Fuse Block(1997 sidekick) is that also a switch?
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Question: The under hood Fuse Block(1997 sidekick) is that also a switch?
Not to my knowledge...
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Thank you,
So Re: the fuse block 1997 sidekick next to the battery the Positive side of the fuse, is always hot ( always has power to it)
Richard
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Which one of the fuses?
If I recall correctly, that fuse block has four or five large slow-blo fuses in it, along with a number of smaller ones - there is a main fuse that is always hot (if that clears, everything goes dead), the next two are what would be known as "sub mains" - one is always hot, and protects the always hot circuits (lights, etc.), via individual fuses in the under dash panel, the other is fed via the ignition switch, so it is only hot when the ignition is on, this one protects the ignition fed circuits (wipers, fan, etc.), again via individual fuses in the under dash panel - I do not recall what the remaining fuses are for.
May I suggest that you visit Ack's FAQ and see what diagrams Ack has available - there should be a 96 Tracker manual which would be fairly similar (if not identical) at least in the power distribution and charge circuits - trying to troubleshoot an electrical problem, so to speak, "in the dark" (pun intended), can be extremely frustrating.
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Thanks,
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The Main Breaker 80amp~ sure looked good~but it's blown. That surly is part of the problem but may not be the root problem.
Right now there seems to be no power to the key, renewing this breaker should restore that, but would not explain why no charge was received from the Alternator. Well it's a start, I plan to pick up the breaker when I go for firewood.
Thank you for talking with me about this.
Richard
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Well, may just have stumbled into a fix. I replaced the 80amp main breaker. Cleaned the many grounds, put in the original Alternator and replaced the broken heat sensor which is also a ground.
With the engine Not running the meter reads 12volts( this is a chinganese meter) With the engine running headlights, heater and radio on the meter read 13volts.
I'll keep an eye on it. Daughter called from work asking for a report, I told her we may have gotten it. Thanks for allowing me to cut up touches with this, it helps to hear what other mechanics thinks.
And thank you beagle!
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#1 - If the main fuse (the 80A one) is blown, there will be no power to anything, you won't get the vehicle started, and it won't charge the battery because the battery isn't connected.
#2 - None of the sensors act as grounds - if the "heat sensor" has a ground, it is ground for that sensor only.
12V engine off, 13V engine on, lights, heater & radio on sounds good.
Just stating the facts ...
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ECU is aware of missing grounds, ether because of the presents or absents of data it receives. Some grounds are critical.
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First - if the ECU detects a missing ground (which it can do based on the sensor input being outside of the expected parameters) it will set a check engine code, and then, where possible, substitute predefined data for the erroneous data, to permit engine operation.
Second - the ECU does not control the charge system, at least not on this generation of the vehicle.
NONE of the ECU grounds have any impact on charge system operation, however charge system grounds may impact ECU operation.
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Quote:
NONE of the ECU grounds have any impact on charge system operation, however charge system grounds may impact ECU operation.
Yes the cart can push the horse.
Suzuki does, I think you know this, have ECU controlled Alternators.
Well, all went well today, with daughters car, so I still have my Hero status.
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I'm well aware of the fact that some Suzuki vehicles have ECU controller alternators, that's why I went to the trouble of qualifying the statement - not on this generation of the vehicle - I own a Suzuki with an ECU controlled alternator, in fact, one of the first generation of Suzukis to use such an alternator.
As far as the cart pushing the horse - if you have the evidence I'd love to see it - I'm always willing to learn something new - in case it hasn't occurred to you, I am quite familiar with the charge systems used on these vehicles and it is identical to that used on the carbureted versions of the vehicle (they do exist, just not in your part of the world) - when I say the ECU grounds have no impact on the charge system, it's because I know, from experience, that the charge systems will work, whether or not there is an ECU or an ECU ground.
The charge system is actually completely independent of the vehicle's other electrical systems requiring only a 12V source for excitation and that is taken from the ignition for convenience - you can spin that alternator with a belt from any rotating power source (for example a windmill) and it will charge a battery, no vehicle required - by the way - you can also use the ECU controlled alternators like this, in the absence of an ECU, they operate like any other alternator.
Kudos on the hero status - it's important - I have three daughters ;)
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Attention fordem, We were at the mountain spread and I brought back related service manuals.
I found in 1997 Tracker service manual a caution against disconnecting ether battery terminal while engine is running.
The car ran well for, I think a month or month and a half~I'm hoping that means no problems were caused.
The condition of NO CHARGE showed when again there were damp/wet conditions.
I have yet to have the sidekick brought to this location as there is record snow in the mountains where the car in now.
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How is the alternator belt tension? Have you checked for a parasitic leak on the battery when the engine is off (key off & removed)?
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Attention fordem, We were at the mountain spread and I brought back related service manuals.
Let's start on a fresh page...
You have a new battery and a new alternator, what makes you think there is a "no charge" condition?
By the way, I did see your other thread, I chose not to respond hoping you would get opinions from other folks.
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How is the alternator belt tension? Have you checked for a parasitic leak on the battery when the engine is off (key off & removed)?
The belt alternator tension was good. I haven't checked for leaks. The charge seem to be there or not, and may be subject to weather. The alternator has been checked and passes. Hoping to have the car here in a few days, weather permitting.
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Attention fordem, We were at the mountain spread and I brought back related service manuals.
Let's start on a fresh page...
You have a new battery and a new alternator, what makes you think there is a "no charge" condition?
By the way, I did see your other thread, I chose not to respond hoping you would get opinions from other folks.
Greetings, Thanks for coming by, RE: No Charge~ Testing, with volt meter, with engine not running ~with engine running I expect to see the voltage increase as it did when the Alternator was supplying charge. The Alternator may be sound but there is no sigh at the battery.
Checking for open circuit, loss of ground or blown fusible link or what ever will have to wait for the car to come to me.
You, will be surprised, I think, at the amount of snow where the sidekick sits!
Richard
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uhmm ya that's a lot of snow ......... west coast Canada is where I live (Chilliwack) and in 36hrs have over 2'. so working on problem solving is from the warmth of the couch lol :laugh:
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On my last trip, my battery light came on just at dusk and still having two more hours to drive, my battery wasn't going to make it. So I stopped at Autozone and had a test ran on alternator, which came out good. After shutting down motor, I noticed that when the counterman was disconnecting from negative post that the battery clamp moved. After snugging up the battery clamp, Battery light went out when I started it back up. Still charging and running good.
A loose wire Hot or Ground?
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Thanks BRD HNTR~Got those tight.
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Well, at long last: The Pink 77 Sidekick is outside here at the lower ranch.
Battery engine NOT running Voltage 12,48
engine running: Voltage at battery 11.78 and will continue dropping if engine.
Question: Does the ECM control alternator output in any way?
Thank you
Richard
I tested the wires both ground and positive battery to Alternator almost no resistance.
* I just found this post by fordham:
Second - the ECU does not control the charge system, at least not on this generation of the vehicle.
If that is true, than though the Alternator tested OK a few weeks ago, I may grudgingly remove the damn, or darn, thing and have it retested Unless one of you gent has an idea of what you would test before testing the Alternator again.
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First - does the charge light come on when the ignition is switched on and go out after the engine starts?
Second - there is a two wire plug that connects to the alternator - the wires should be black/white & white/red - connect the meter negative to the battery negative and back probe the wires with the ignition on and the engine both off and running - what voltages do you get?
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Greetings fordem. Yes, there are two wires going to the Alternator on a single plug. The power light comes on and then goes off. I didn't see an idiot light of any other description.
I had told the girls that it isn't impossible that the voltage regulator has blown.The girls were pushing me to have the Alternator checked again, I gave in and she took the Alternator into NAPA
in Silver Springs, he, the parts fellow put it on the tester and said: "NO VOLTAGE OUTPUT" She ordered one that will be in tomorrow.
I'll be in the mountains tomorrow~wife will take the Alternator in to be tested in Carson City (just to be sure) when I return I'll install hoping for the best.
fordem, thanks for coming back on this. If the New Alternator doesn't work we'll have to find a way of blaming you~Just kidding.
I'll come back on to tell the outcome.
Richard
It's snowing in the Sierra Nevada as we speak, they claim 180% normal, I don't know about that, lived there for a lot of years, but it is nice to have the big snow to make up for some three years of drought.
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Want some snow?
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wasn't that the new alternator that you just purchased?
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Greetings beagle, Thanks for coming back. No, when this latest Problem No Charge condition showed up with the New Alternator. I removed the alternator to have it and the old alternator tested for power output, I cleaned the grounds and power supply cable and tested for resistance.
The both alternators tested Good, I re installed the old alternator it worked well! In a few weeks the problem seemed back. I began testing for resistance in the ground and supply from alternator to battery and at the same time removed the old ALTERNATOR, it tested No out put, the voltage regulator had poffed. I installed a new alternator and she's running, and charging at 14+ volts.
You may be thinking: Why the helg did he re install the old alternator~ I must admit I've always done that sort of thing on our own cars. I though the problem had been solved and it wasn't the Alternator~I still think that true and had not the voltage regulator gone out I'd have been smiling.
Thank you, beagle, you and a couple others, it has always been a help cut up touches with other mechanics, more so this time when I was far from my shop, in freezing weather and then being for a time far from the car I was to work on. Thanks buddy!
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your welcome , but that is what these forums are about helping everyone. it may that a while to figure out but there are many peeps on here that have way more knowledge than me. again thanks for the complement