ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Digger on May 16, 2005, 04:47:33 PM
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Out wheeling this past weekend, I managed to break my winch cable. I slid/drove down into a deep ravine and the only way out was a 50 yard long, seemingly 45 degree slope up with rocks, ruts and roots... Plus it had rained the last couple days, so it was nice and greasy. I was only able to drive about 1/4 of the way up the slope. Then I hooked up the winch and winched up a little ways before the cable snapped about 2 feet from the hook.
I finally got out of there by creating an alternate route, but it got me thinking...
This was with my Silver Tracker on 31's. The 3000lb winch was straining but working slowly before the cable snapped. I need a winch for the Green Goblin Tracker on 33's. I figure it will get stuck in even more interesting/difficult to get out of places, so I figured I better upgrade to a heavier winch.
I was thinking a 6000lb winch would be enough. That would be more than double the curb weight of the Tracker. What do you guys think? What size winches are you all running?
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I think bigger is better
I'm running a 8000#Warn
Got it new for 500 bucks ;D Special sale at 4Wheel parts
I have friends running 9000#Warns on theirs but they have the extra $
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Im running mile marker's 9.5 ;D
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at costco, here anyways they are sellign a 8000# winch for 389 bucks includes everything apparently what i have herd its a pretty impressive winch for the money
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did your cable break through previous wear, or damage on that pull, or was it just not a strong enough cable given the small winch?
a cable usually breaks ( albeit rarely) at the fairlead end due to extreme angles of pull and a stalled winch combined.
pulling other loads with your winch ( ie you stationary) can damage your cable as it slides over ramps etc
an 8000/9000 winch is more than enough, or a 6000 if a snatch block is sensibly employed
have fun!
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Actually the cable wasn't that old and didn't have any previous damage. I think it was stretched over a rock right where it broke, but I didn't rig the cable, I was sitting behind the wheel standing on the brakes to stay put on the hill while my friend hooked up the winch...
Since the Tracker only weighs about 2500 pounds, a 6000 pound winch ought to be more than enough even single-line pulling, right? Warn's recomendations for winch capacity are only 1.5 times the weight of the vehicle(loaded), and Ramsey's site said something about the loaded weight plus 12% for a minimum recomendation. I know bigger is better, but the 8000's I've found so far are at least $100 more than the 6000 Milemarker I'm looking at.(I don't have any costco's around me)...
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I'm running an 8000# Ramsey and love it. It's slow but it's a workhorse. Pulling your self you could probably get it done with a 6000# but if you ever have to hook to one of your misguided friends (non Zuk owners) The 6000# may not have what it takes. For only $100 more I would highly reccomend the 8000#
Zig
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http://www.e-winches.com/detail.aspx?ID=663
This is the way to go Bro!!!! ;)
$430
Check out the weight! It's about 1/2 the weight of just about EVERY other winch but it doesn't mater b/c they have  FREE SHIPPING on winches. I pulled a F350 out of about 3' of sticky clay not too long ago,,,,No problem!! ;D
And a Heep,,,,,Then I put it back in Two wheel and drove through what they were stuck in. ::)
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Most use a 1.5-1.75-2 ratio for winch size as a general rule. The ratio is of the vehicles weight. This is for a pulling a vehicle through something that stopped it. If you were to pull it backwards after alreading driving through it, 1.5 is the general rule.
Now, since the Trackick is so light, 5K would probably work in 95% of your wheeling. However, there are limits as you have found out. Weight consideration, amp draw, length of cable on drum, etc. The larger capacity of the winch, the larger the cable diameter, the larger the overall size of the winch, the overall additional weight, etc. Then there is the mounting plate and frame attachments to consider. Or the hitch frame setup of a portable winch plate.
If you carried some longer cable, you could have used a snatch block to double you line capacity and cut the line speed in half, but still would have pulled you out.
Since your cable broke, did you take precautionary action in case of such?
Did you know there are some real small ATV high capacity winches? 4-4.5k#'s? Small in size for sure.....
Don't forget you could use a hi-lift as a winch.... ;D with a solid link line. I wouldn't use one with a strap. Gotta have either chain or rope or wire rope.
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lol i just carry 2 comalongs and about 15' of aditional chain?
??? then i have never had to use it? Knock on wood i like bieng lucky :o
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I think the recommendation of 1.5 times is for recovery vehicles pulling up ramps. They assume a rolling vehicle and not something thats up to its axles in mud. Even with an 8000lb winch I've had to use a snatch block because I was winching up a very steep slope, I wasn't stuck as in not moving I just couldn't get enough grip to get over the top (very muddy).
Have a look here:
http://www.manorcommercials.com/winchtips.htm
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1.5-2 times the weight of the loaded vehicle is a good rule of thumb.
Unfortunately, I think what people don't realize is that when you are stuck, your truck essentially weights more than curb weight due to friction/drag on the ground. If you're angle is just right you're now pulling against all of the mud/trees/rocks which weight a bunch more then just your truck alone.
Ideally, the load rating of a winch is determined by lifting something straight up. Which makes it a no brainer to determine max load of the motor/cable. However when you have additional friction of earthly objects, calculations of actual load on the system are difficult to determine.
I wouldn't skimp on an underpowered winch, because it maybe your only way home.
~Nate
(we're looking at 9000lb winches)
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Let's look at the physics.
My Calmini Winch Bumper hasn't cratered with my Warn 6000 winch, so I have empirical evidence that it's OK.
BUT - just because you can put a 9000 pound winch on that Calmini bumper, doesn't mean it will stay attached to your Track/Kick under max load.
So - if you're in questionable territory, you use a snatch block - that is, a pulley at the far end, and loop the cable back, say for instance to the welded loop on the frame.
How is that better? Like this: If I use a snatch block, the weight is divided between the span from the winch to the snatch block, and the span from the snatch block, back to the frame - so if I'm pulling 10,000 pounds (eek! - yes, with my 6,000 pound winch), that's 5,000 pounds to the winch, and 5,000 pounds to the frame (really - that's how a snatch block "extends" your capability).
If you're ever in doubt - double up your line, and use the snatch block. Note, that it will only be half as fast - be patient!
But - you say My Warn 6000 only came with 80 feet of steel cable! that's less than 40 feet, using a snatch block!
No problem. Throw that nasssssty steel rope away, and get some 1/4 inch blue synthetic winch line (rated at 9,200 pounds) instead - I have 175 feet of the blue stuff on my Warn 6000.
Get it from Scott, at Rockstomper.com: http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm
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So what is the curb weight of an 89sidekick soft top? about 2300?
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ok if we go big estimate sidekick weighs 3000 LB then at 2 times the load you would need a 6000 LB winch
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that gives you the ability to move 12000 lb with a snatch block, that is the ability to move a 6 TON object with the use of a snatch block :o so just get the 5/16 winch rope rated at
13700LB and be good to go overkill and then a bit
and if you have enough rope you could always add anouther pully into in and beable to hoist nearly 10 tons on that 6000LB winch
my 2 bits any way. 8)
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The 2 door sidekick would be around the same curb weight of the 2 door Tracker. This changes with the weight of bigger tires/wheels, recovery gear and the people inside.
The 3000 pound winch on my silver Tracker has pulled me out of a couple different nasty situations without problem and probably would have pulled me up that hill if I had insulated the cable over that rock, but I was trying to help the winch by slipping the clutch and attempting to drive while winching and that gave some occasional shock loads to the cable which is probably what snapped it(in addition to being stretched over a rock) ::)
That extra $100+ is just simply not in the budget for the Goblin, the 6000 pound Milemarker I found has free shipping, comes with a roller f/l and 85 feet of 5/16" cable and brings my total for the vehicle to just under $1500 with the Swampers(and the cost of the vehicle to begin with). That's my price cap, both self-imposed and signifigant other imposed(LOL!!!). The 3000 pound milemarker has impressed me greatly so far, so doubling it's capacity with the 6000 should be more than enough for what I'm doing with it! Plus, like stated above, smart use of a snatch block should make it more than adequate...
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BobZuki raises a very good point, my winch bumper mountings are custom made, very heavy duty and welded to the frame with some hefty reinforcement. A winch bumper secured just at the stock mounting points could well turn into an extremely lethal flying object with a 9000lb winch doubled back.
Another point to remember is when you double back the cable you have more wire off the spool which reduces the leverage the winch applies. You can improve things by using a strong strop between the snatch block and the anchor point.
The wiring of the winch will also affect how much power you will actually get you need good quality heavy duty cables to reduce losses.
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So a 2 door Sidekick softtop empty is ~1400kg = ~3080lbs.
Larger tires & rims, suspension lift, rock rails, skid plates, rear swing arm bumper, front winch bumper, extra battery and winch add 300-500 lbs.
Load up 2 people and mild trail gear, add another 400-600 lbs. And the little track/kick just became 4000lbs easy.
2 extra, 5 gallon gas cans, externally mounted high-lift, shovel, chain saw, and roof rack another 200-300 lbs.
Plop down a 4 door hard top, loaded with dual cases, even larger tires, massive suspension lift and even more people and gear and we've got ~5000lbs.
A little 6000lb winch just became an expensive anchor to be used on the car trailer to aid in loading up the broken track/kick
I've wheeled with people with under powered winches and have seen what a snapped cable does. Not pretty.
Be careful!
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[url]http://www.e-winches.com/detail.aspx?ID=663[/url]
This is the way to go Bro!!!! ;)
$430
Check out the weight! It's about 1/2 the weight of just about EVERY other winch but it doesn't mater b/c they have  FREE SHIPPING on winches. I pulled a F350 out of about 3' of sticky clay not too long ago,,,,No problem!! ;D
And a Heep,,,,,Then I put it back in Two wheel and drove through what they were stuck in. ::)
Power to weigh?????? Its a big deal with zuks!!
PRICE!! Try to beat it. Its got plenty of power.
And didn't this first thread end with what type of winch? Not cable strength. But Im glad nobody lost a limb when that cable snapped. Im going synthetic rope,,,,,Its stronger, lighter, and wont cut your head off if it snaps.
More loot to though :P
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i have seen cabels snap, and i had a friend get hit in the face by a snatch block "he tied it to the tree with rope MORON" and he had a 9000lb winch on a yota i think, but any way he lived but wont get into a vehicle with a winch any more. So yeah anything with that much payload and memory should be handeld with EXTREEM caution.
that is why i said 6000lb winch with 13700 lb synthetic roap, cause then the stuff aint gona break, and if it does it will just fall to the ground.
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My cable just fell to the ground when it snapped, it didn't fly anywhere. I found out later that it has a synthetic core, don't know if that made any difference in the elasticity or not...
I will eventually get synthetic line for both winches, but wanted to get my money's worth out of the cable first...
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Well arent people supposed to put a blanket over the winch line to slow it down if it does break? or is that a lie?
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The blanket trick works very well. I've seen it in action...
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The blanket trick works very well. I've seen it in action...
i thuahgt it did, ive never seen anyoen use it tho, i woudl if i had a winch
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I wouldn't go smaller than 6000. I have a Ramsey 8000 on mine. As mentioned it's when it is well and truly stuck in mud or you're trying to move it over some good sized obstacles that the force required to move it increases greatly. With any sort of rigging a little bit of overkill is not a bad thing, lives can be at risk. I also have a snatch block and think they should be a part of any winch kit not only for increasing the load you can move but you can also use them to help you pull in the right direction as your anchor point may not always be where you want it.
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Couple of other things. I have a switch rigged inside my rig on the dash so I have a backup to the plug-in winch control. I also have a winch blanket for added safety and an extension as good anchor points can be a long way from where you are stuck. I'm running an ARB winch bar that I have beefed up and tied back to the chassis better, as others have mentioned it doesn't matter what the load is the winch can pull if it doesn't stay attached to your rig.
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how do snatch blocks work?
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They're basically a big pulley that you can open up to pass the wire through instead of having to thread it through.
http://www.4by4connection.com/arbsnatchblock.html
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Well my winch bumper is bolted to the stock location, as well as having 1/2" grade 8 bolts into the frame, heavy duty muffler clamps to the tubular crossmember under the bumper and it's also tied into the skidplate that bolts to the back of the bumper, trusses the front a-arm mounts and extends back and is bolted to the engine crossmember... it's plenty solid!
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LEVERAGE its all about leverage!
lol and so manny things are.
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I have a Harbor Freight winch. 8000 lbs and costs under $300 on sale. It looks just like a Mile Marker 8000. I have only had to use it once to pull the tracker out of a high side(all four wheels off the ground), but I used it about twenty times to pull down oak trees after the hurricanes. One tree was a little too big and picked the tracker front wheels off of the ground. I also put a harbor freight 2000lb winch on the rear(it was only $49). I figure I can pull about a hundred pounds max with my body, so 2000lbs is a lot better. Also good for pulling something on a trailer. I fabbed up my own bumpers and winch mounts and everything is welded. The winches themselves are through bolted and then tack welded to discourage theft.
Mike