ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Build Diaries, How-To, DIY => Topic started by: GRVIT on January 23, 2004, 07:27:58 AM
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Hi everyone.I searched through all the topics but I didnt find the info I want for lockers,apart from some relevant topics (ARB vs Detroit,e.t.c) .I  have just installed a Detroit EZ locker in the rear axle of my sidekick.I test it today,it works nice.But I want some more info.Here are my questions :
1) When I start from stop ,I have the impression that first the rear left wheel is engaged and in a sec the right.Could it be possible or it's just my idea ?
2)What should I watch out when driving using a locker?
For example when I start turning ,it starts clicking.But if I enter the turn with a little throtlle,its o.k.If I enter the turn with no throttle,the truck seems to be stressed somehow.What is the right way to use when turning or approaching turns ?
3)I read that many of you use automatic lockers also in the front axle.I would like to use one too.But the limited experience that I have till now about driving with lockers,troubles me.Is it o.k to install an auto locker in the front axle ?I mean if I get used to the use of lockers would it be o.k or it would be safer to install an ARB ?
Could you propose what is the best combination of auto lockers (front-rear) for a sidekick ?
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3)I read that many of you use automatic lockers also in the front axle.I would like to use one too.But the limited experience that I have till now about driving with lockers,troubles me.Is it o.k to install an auto locker in the front axle ?I mean if I get used to the use of lockers would it be o.k or it would be safer to install an ARB ?
Could you propose what is the best combination of auto lockers (front-rear) for a sidekick ?
I'd think that any type locker in the front of these alum housing units would destroy it in a hurry.
~Nate
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Your rear locker sounds normal. You will get used to driving it and it will seem less extreme.
As far as the front click on artical archives (at the bottom of the page) then click on tech. On the right in a grey shaded area there is a tech artical on how to install a locker into the front of a trackick.
Mike
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ya you can't instal a locker in the stock houseing. i'm getting a steel one in a few weeks. then mabey next winter i'll lock up the front.
P.S. on like page 2 thir is a everyones mods thread, sigh it.
Stu
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I am also gonna put a locker in the rear and I was wanting to put one up front. I have the alum housing. Is that a bad idea? How weak exactly are the alum housings? Where is a good place to buy a steel one or should I save up for an anvil? Thanks
Jacob
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How weak exactly are the alum housings? Where is a good place to buy a steel one or should I save up for an anvil? Thanks
Jacob
I am on my third front diff housing and I am not locked in front. If I was going to continue to build the tracker, I would get the anvil and an ARB and call it good.
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i got my steel third from hawk suzuki for 235.00 pretty pricy but well worth it ;)
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Have had a locker ( Lock-Right and now Lincoln for 4 years in the front I have NEVER broken a front housing.
I cant see why.... Hmmm, unless its because you play in the rocks primarily. ??? I always broke my front aluminum housings while either mudd'n or sand climbs or anytime the front tires were wingin and got quick traction. Crawling I never had a problem.
Mike
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As far as the front click on artical archives (at the bottom of the page) then click on tech. On the right in a grey shaded area there is a tech artical on how to install a locker into the front of a trackick.
Mike
Thanks Mike.I ve read all the relative articles in this forum.You are reffering to the use of a sammy 4 pin carrier and the installation procedure,if I m right.I have that in my mind.I ve read all your articles too. :)
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I'd think that any type locker in the front of these alum housing units would destroy it in a hurry.~Nate
I ve listed my truck's mods in the topic "everyone's mods".
In a few words,among other mods ,I have installed
Calmini 3"+3",Anvil,3rd steel member from GV 2.5-V6,Calmini R&P 5,83:1,Calmini idler arm brace (simple but offers much)
And yes,I ve already broken the alum.casing.It breaks easily.
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Thank you for your replies till now.
I just wanted to see what do you think about installing auto lockers in the front differential,and maybe your proposals about what the best combination of using auto lockers (f-r) would be.As for puting a locker in the front diff I m concerned mainly for safety reasons and steering control.I m not an experienced off-road driver even though I ve modified my truck in such a way ,as to reduce damage possibility.You can check the mods in the "everyones mods" topic,as I mentioned previously.
I also worry for the safety of the Richmond gears safety in my front diff... :'(.
Also if you can mention some driving tips (when cornering,in mud) when driving with lockers,I think it will be good info for every non experienced off road driver.
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Here's a mod that might save the stock
diff from breaking so easily, I plan on
going to an ARB up front, and this is what
I will be doing to strengthen the 3rd member.
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/gusset.jpg)
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yes but the passenger's side casing mount (the 3bolt one) remains a weak point,doesn't it ?
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yes but the passenger's side casing mount (the 3bolt one) remains a weak point,doesn't it ?
The whole thing is a weak point!
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yes but the passenger's side casing mount (the 3bolt one) remains a weak point,doesn't it ?
Yes, to a point, I filled in the "hollow" spot between the
3 bolts, I just kept welding until it was full and retapped
the broken hole, I had some loose and missing bolts, so
I consider that break my fault for not checking everything.
I had to do a neutral drop to get out of a hole some *#&|removethispart|@ard
dug at the top of this sand dune, bout swallowed the trucklet
and I got that dent in the "cheek" of my fender from rolling
on the side and back upright, If I'd a caught the *#&|removethispart|@ard I
would of done somthing I'd regret, man I was pissed about
that.
>:(
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thats third memeber looks awsome. has anyone ever had any probs with steel ones?
Stu
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Not that I have heard of, but you might
ask if Mike knows, he's really up to date
on the front axle stuff.
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ya i really like his norrowed 7.5 rear up front. really wana build one.
Stu
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Yes, to a point, I filled in the "hollow" spot between the
3 bolts, I just kept welding until it was full and retapped
the broken hole, I had some loose and missing bolts, so
I consider that break my fault for not checking everything. >:(
I ve done that to my stock aluminium casing but it broke.I believe that whatever you ll do,it still remains a weak aluminium casing.About what you say about the loose bolts,from my experience,the bolts get loose by themselves.If you bolt /unbolt them over 5 times,or try to put more power on them to bolt them tight,then the inside,where the bolt goes ,starts to get loose.In this case you can use longer bolts so that they can go deeper in the mount,but this will go on and on till the complete failure of the 3bolt mount.That's what happened to me.Its not only the mount that breaks easily but also where the bolts go.You see,its aluminium and inside goes a steel bolt.........
After a short period of off roading I always had a bolt loose.I think usually it was the lower one.Till I put longer ones.But this does not solve the problem.
So I got a complete (casing and third member) Grand Vitara 2,5 V6 front axle.(thanks to my friends from UK ,Dave(K9rdj)-Simon(Tonka-toy)-Dave.S. But because I wanted to make the front axle as strong as possible  (and secure the new 5,83:1 R&P's),I decided to go for the Anvil.The final set up now,is the Anvil and the steel 3rd member from GV.No problem till now and seems  indestructable. ..... :) The worse damage that I can have now is a broken driveshaft.....
I think everyone that has an aluminium axle must replace it with a steel one (3rd member included),instead of trying to make aluminium parts stronger.They can never be as strong as steel.
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Glad to see we've all been there and done that with these POS alum housings and 3rd members.
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I used high strength lock-tite and have had no loose
bolts for over 2 years, I think that running an auto
trans has alot to do with the breakage, I know I can't
stress with shock like a clutch does, unless I do a neutral
drop again, which I don't do, this was an isolated case
where I had to drop at RPM to get out of a stuck, I had
sand almost covering all the tires after the sides of the
pit that *#&|removethispart|@ard dug ( >:( Still mad about it) caved in
and almost buried the trucklet, I had to climb out the
window to get out and see how bad I was stuck.
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has anyone ever had any probs with steel ones?
Stu
Not to my knowlege.
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According to your experience,with a set up like the one I have now (Calmini 3"+3",Anvil-steel 3rd member-5,83 r&p's-Centerforce II-Warn premiun hubs-26 spline driveshafts-steering stabiliser-idler arm brace)
is it safe enough to install an automatic locker in front and which one  do you propose ? What moves should I avoid when off roading ?
An other option is to put an LSD in the front axle,mainly to reduce stress,but .....its not a locker ..... :(
(sorry for any mistakes I do,english is not my native language)  :-[
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wildgoody (or actualy anyone that has reinforced an aluminum 3rd member) it looks like in the pic you used a mig welder did you find the case had changed shape or you needed to rebore the bearing saddles? did you do a lot of cooling time between beads?
|removethispart|@ work I have acess BIG mig and Tig welders, I do weld aluminum on a daily basis but I have found things change shap radicaly , I work primarily with sheet metal mostly .160 5052 and some .250 5086 but others too tlike T6 and T4 extrusions
I do moderate off roading, nothing real extreme so perhaps welding my box and shimming/stiffining up the spiders would suffice
I'm just leary of the warpage factor.
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I have not done the welding yet on the diff,
the pic I have is from a guy in Mexico or South
America, like Brazil, he said since the mod he
has had no problems, so I think he is running
this mod and had no warpage.
I did however weld that custom high angle front
bumper out of .100" Aluminum plate, and some
diamond plate, also aluminum, and did not have
any warpage problems. I don't know how the casting
would hold up, and I don't remember what alloy
the plate I used is, but I did use a MIG welder
with the softer alloy wire, I think it's like 3000
series alloy, I also tried the 5000 alloy wire, which
is much stiffer, but it seems to not be as easy to
weld with. I did get the larger Dia. .035" wire when
I got the stiffer wire, which might be the problem.
I use a small MIG machine, so I pre-heat the thing
I'm working on and that might help to reduce the
warp factor, also I don't think a 110V MIG puts out
over 85 Amps so the heat is not as severe as some
of the high output machines.
I run the welds hot and fast, high wire speed, like around
8 on the 1-10 scale of the Lincoln mini MIG, you know the
ones that about look like a suitcase, great little welder for
light stuff, welds tubing like a champ.
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thanks for the reply.
I have noticed there is a huge difrence IE: thinner panels warpage/shrinkage is far more pronounced
I have also noticed the harder aloys are more heat stable
I've only been doing this for about 5 months so I am fairly new to this aluminum fabrication bit
perhaps the casting is thick enough the heat doesn't warp it ?
Not to hijack this thread(I guess you could star tanother one) but I would like to see some pics of your aluminum bumper ..... I got some 1/4" dimond plate scraps to play with and I could use/ steal some ideas ;D
BTW the welding stations we have|removethispart|@ work are mig controller stacked on tig combined they are about the size of a refrigerator. :o
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According to your experience,with a set up like the one I have now (Calmini 3"+3",Anvil-steel 3rd member-5,83 r&p's-Centerforce II-Warn premiun hubs-26 spline driveshafts-steering stabiliser-idler arm brace)
is it safe enough to install an automatic locker in front and which one  do you propose ? What moves should I avoid when off roading ?
An other option is to put an LSD in the front axle,mainly to reduce stress,but .....its not a locker ..... :(
(sorry for any mistakes I do,english is not my native language)  :-[
I have been locked in the front for years and never trashed a front housing :-/ I must be lucky from what I have heard about others experiances. I have trashed many half shafts and CV's. I recently upgraded to the Anvil w/ XL-7 3rd member (see article archives "Zig's Beef) I dont believe that you will have any trouble with a locker and the Anvil/steel 3rd set up. The problems that you will probably have will be with the CV's breaking under the extra force. Keep in mind that will be determined by your driving style and how heavy your right foot is. I drive my Kick HARD, and I expect to break stuff with the trails I ride and the vehicles I follow/lead through the trails.
If you are running manual lockout hubs there will be no difference of driving in 2wd than what you have now. Off road you will gain an incredible amount of traction with a front locker. Your steering will not be as tight turning in 4x4 with a locker and you will have ALOT more steering wheel pull from the wheels grabbing traction. With manual steering it can be tough to turn if the locker locks in, but I quickly learned to feather the throttle to lock/unlock the locker to allow turning.
I personally think you will enjoy being locked in the front, as long as you dont mind switching out CV's on the trail.
Also see the article archives on Hagens Explorer CV set up. It will be a good upgrade for you if you find yourself breaking CV's after installing the Locker
I hope this helps out,
Zig
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This is the modified failed first bumper, the first
one was square and it hit on stuff all the time, so
I cut the front and bottom off of it and pulled the
angle into it so now I can hit about a 70* incline
and I don't hit, now I have to work on the rear so
I don't get hung up from the back ;D
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/highanglebump.jpg)
this second pic is a link as the pic is bigger and I
don't want to slow the page load speed.
http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/suzuki04.jpg
Enjoy,
Darrin
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"If you are running manual lockout hubs there will be no difference of driving in 2wd than what you have now."
" With manual steering it can be tough to turn if the locker locks in, but I quickly learned to feather the throttle to lock/unlock the locker to allow turning."
I hope this helps out,
Zig
Yes it helps.Thanks.Have some questions though...
I have also read Hagen's article about explorer's CV set up.I ll try to do it.Can you give me more details about that there will be no difference of driving in 2wd if I m running manual locout hubs.I have Warn premium manual hubs.
Also what do you mean when you say "with manual steering it can be tough if the locker locks in...."
I think I understand what you are saying but I want to be sure.Thanks
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When you are in 2wd the locker will feel like an open diff. Thats why people want a 2 low option. This way they can drive slow and turn easily.
Mike
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When you are in 2wd the locker will feel like an open diff. Thats why people want a 2 low option. This way they can drive slow and turn easily.
Mike
So what you are saying is that even if you have a locker in the front axle,when in 2wd, you have power only to the rear axle.So if you have manual hubs at front,you unlock them and the front locker-axle is neutral.If I got it right ,this way I believe a 2wd low helps.Its not like 4WD Low but its helpful.Thanks
After upgrading to Explorer CV set up,did you have any problems/damages with them?
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Just thought I'd put my 2cents in.
I run ARB's. When I hit the trails I usally lock in the rear, unless it's really twisty, and leave the front open. For the most part I can't tell when I'm in 2wd are 4wd as far as stearing is concerned. When I come up to an obsticle I just push a button and now I'm locked front and rear. Once I'm through I push a button and the fronts now open.
I've heard the lame excuse about "Now I have to think about locking up the front". It's no different than remembering to put it into 4wd. Once you get use to it, it becomes automatic.
P.S. Another bonnis is that you now have "On board air". It's not fast but it's come in handy with my Jeep friend on the trail. ::)
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So what you are saying is that even if you have a locker in the front axle,when in 2wd, you have power only to the rear axle.So if you have manual hubs at front,you unlock them and the front locker-axle is neutral.If I got it right ,this way I believe a 2wd low helps.Its not like 4WD Low but its helpful.Thanks
After upgrading to Explorer CV set up,did you have any problems/damages with them?
Even if the hubs are locked in it will still turn easy, as long as its in 2wd.
As far as the Explorer shafts, I dont use them. I am using the drivers side 95 Nissan Maxima V6 5 speed w/o Antilock. The concept is the same. However,the reason I didnt write the artical on those is because because they only fit on the widened front setup I have, they are rare, and There is no room for error durring the build. 1/4 inch off and your rare shaft is trash. I only built one set of Explorer shafts. The guy running them has kind of put wheeling on the back burner so unfortunately I dont have any long term report for you.
Mike
Mike
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I'm with lil_truck, I'm running front and rear ARB's, just locked when needed. Alloy housing but will go steel if I break it.
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Ive brocken 2 alu 3rd members ,im now going to steel 3rd member 26 spline axles and a lockright locker,is it better to upgrade the alu housing as well?Also how easy is it to break the cv's?are the xl7 cv's maybe not stronger?
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I busted 2 of the 3 bolts out of the passenger side mount in reverse. I moved the housing back into its position and did the pinion mount mod Mike did. I have been out wheeling twice since then with no problem,even with only 1 bolt holding the passengerside mount :P.. I didnt have any spares at the time so I went on wheelin.
Later,
Bill
yes but the passenger's side casing mount (the 3bolt one) remains a weak point,doesn't it ?
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Even if the hubs are locked in it will still turn easy, as long as its in 2wd.
As far as the Explorer shafts, I dont use them. I am using  the drivers side 95 Nissan Maxima V6 5 speed w/o Antilock. The concept is the same. However,the reason I didnt write the artical on those is because because they only fit on the widened front setup I have, they are rare, and There is no room for error durring the build. 1/4 inch off and your rare shaft is trash. I only built one set of Explorer shafts. The guy running them has kind of put wheeling on the back burner so unfortunately I dont have any long term report for you.
Mike
Mike
O.k thanks.So what should I try to do to strengthen the CV'shafts ? I think the 26 spline ones are o.k for the sidekick but I would like to have stronger ones.Go for the Explorer CV set up and see how it goes?
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Ive brocken 2 alu 3rd members ,im now going to steel 3rd member 26 spline axles and a lockright locker,is it better to upgrade the alu housing as well?Also how easy is it to break the cv's?are the xl7 cv's maybe not stronger?
Well I did get the Anvil just to forget the whole case of breaking the front casing again...I just cant stand having the same kind of damage twice if there is a way to avoid it ... :) Same goes for the stock 3rd member.I replaced it with a Grand Vitara 2.500cc,V6 one.So what is left to worry about ,is the CV shafts.Now about how easy is it to break CV's,a more experienced member could help you more,but as far as I know,they break easily especially if stress the truck more than needed to overcome an obstacle.It also depends on the driving skills of the driver I believe.A friend of mine yesterday tried to overcome a difficult for a stock sidekick obstacle (he just has 1.5" susp.lift -OME) and he broke the passenger's side CV shaft and the same side casing mount (the 3 bolt one).I believe that he stressed it too much though.I also know that the passenger's side CV shaft is not as strong as the driver's side one.If you are going to get a steel 3rd member I think it will be better to go for a steel casing too.I dont know how strong are the XL-7 cv's......
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I busted 2 of the 3 bolts out of the passenger side mount in reverse. I moved the housing back into its position and did the pinion mount mod Mike did. I have been out wheeling twice since then with no problem,even with only 1 bolt holding the passengerside mount  :P.. I didnt have any spares at the time so I went on wheelin.
Later,
Bill
with one bolt holding the 3-bolt mount ???  :o :o....
I m starting to think that the cracking of the passenger's side casing mount and maybe the cracking of the 3rd member at the middle has something to do with how strong is the 3rd member mount on the crossmember. :-/
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i'm running 34in swampers and my front end is stock and i have never broke a CV. But i think mud isnt as hard on parts as rocks are so...
Stu
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Mud is where I broke mine. I think Mike said it earlyer. Going slow through stuff like rocks, off camber... puts an even stress on your parts.
But, going balls out through a mud hole, then having a tirer hook up and getting a all that torque hammered onto the CV's. They just won't hold up.
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Mud is where I broke mine.  I think Mike said it earlyer.  Going slow through stuff like rocks, off camber... puts an even stress on your parts.
But, going balls out through a mud hole, then having a tirer hook up and getting a all that torque hammered onto the CV's.  They just won't hold up.
SO I GUESS WHAT I'VE LEARNED FROM THIS IS THAT YOU DONT WANT TO PURPOSELY BE SPINNING THE TIRES WHEN YOUR GONNA COME INTO CONTACT WITH A VERY GRIPPING SURFACE....SOUNDS EASY BUT I KNOW BETTER....BUT SERIOUSLY YOU CAN HELP YOUR LITTLE ZUKE OUT WITH A LITTLE CARRESS AT TIMES AYE ! ;D
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If anyone's interested, I have become fairly axle creative lately. I am humoring the idea of making a stronger diff housing/mount setup for the ifs zukis using heavily modified sammy pieces. If you are interested, let me know.
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I would be interested, its somethin different. So let me know what you are thinkin and what the expected costs might be ;D :D
Jacob
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i put the 2.5 v6 steel front axle and 3rd member on my truck after i got through nine front axles.
i have also fitted front and rear lsd's and the traction is awesome.
i have two friends running lockrites in the rear. one has a steel axle and the other an aluminium axle. the one running the steel axle pops driveshafts and the other blows the diff casings with tremendous ease..
still nine axles for me was enough
also dave jones (k9rdj) also fitted a steel front end after doing nine front axles ... neither of us have had any problems since ...
hope this helps ;D
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After 2 weeks of driving I have to tell that I m very happy that I took the decision to put a locker(Detroit EZ) in the rear axle.Now I can understand the advise people in here gave me before installing it.The truck got better (70%) in offroad driving.Its really difficult to get stuck now....Have to adjust a little more my driving style when driving on normal streets though....
Now that I know whats going on when there's a locker in the rear axle,I have questions about the front axle.I m thinking of installing the same locker in the front axle too.What behavior should I expect when driving in 4WD ? How can I control the locker if for example its still locked and I want to unlock it (for example in extremely mud terrain where, if I m correct,its cannot be easily unlocked) ?
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Unless you get and ARB Air Locker, you cannot
"unlock" your Diff The EZ locker is fully automatic,
it locks when there is slippage, but allows the faster
turning "non-driving" tire to go "free" when cornering
on the street, which helps save broken axles.
Hope this helps,
Darrin
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Unless you get and ARB Air Locker, you cannot
"unlock" your Diff  The EZ locker is fully automatic,
it locks when there is slippage, but allows the faster
turning "non-driving" tire to go "free" when cornering
on the street, which helps save broken axles.
Hope this helps,
Darrin
Thanks.I know that I can't unlock it ,at least not with something like pushing a button,but I think there are some driving tips when offroading that help to control the locker's behavior...
I know that the ARB can be fully controlled with the use of a button,but I think that I cant have my mind to remember to lock-unlock it.In a dificult muddy terrain with c continuous close turns,I would have to press that button more than 10 times in a min.The ARB does not permit wheel differentiation at all,while auto lockers do.I m not saying that its not good,but maybe its not for me.
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You know that you can't drive your truck unless you turn the key?? Also I hope you have an automatic because remembering to push in the clutch before you shift can be tricky some times?? Also I'm wondering are you able to use a turn signal and turn at the same time ??? ??? ???
;D Just having some fun with ya ;D
I have ARB's and the switch thing is a cop out. Only a couple times did I really forget. It's no different that for getting to put you truck in 4wd. How often does that happen? Some times I now leave them open just to spice things up. ;)
Most of the time when I hit the trail I turn the rear on and leave it on. Then when a hard obsticle comes up I lock the front, make it through and then turn it off. It stears like it's on the street for the most part.
As for stearing with the locker, locked in the mud. It actually stears easyer. When mines locked it's locked. And when I'm in mud or snow there's no resistance so the wheels slide and you don't know.
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Yep 2 of the 3 bolt holes were busted!! I did that solid pinion mount and it kept the housing from moving. I went to Coal Creek in Tennessee and didnt notice it was busted until I got there. I used 2-1"x1/8" pieces of strap and bolted the pinion down to the crossmember. Wheeled 3 days like that. If you dont have your pinion mount beefed up do it before it breaks.
Later,
Bill
with one bolt holding the 3-bolt mount ???  :o :o....
I m starting to think that the cracking of the passenger's side casing mount and maybe the cracking of the 3rd member at the middle has something to do with how strong is the 3rd member mount on the crossmember. :-/
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Kerry, I thought you were going to do a sas on that thing?
Mike
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Ohhh. :) Im starting a second rig also. Im debating on doing a sas rig just to be able to really compare, just for my own curiosity. Im starting this spring.
mike
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As for stearing with the locker, locked in the mud.  It actually stears easyer.  When mines locked it's locked.  And when I'm in mud or snow there's no resistance so the wheels slide and you don't know.
So if I got it right,if someone does most of his offroading in mud terrain(my case)and has already a locker auto or ARB in the rear axle ,its not a good idea to install an auto locker in the front axle,since in most cases due to no resistance ,the front  wheels will be spinning,he wont have steering control and the truck will move sideways.An automatic  front locker works good on rocks though as I see it.
So ,the best solution for driving in mud terrain would be an ARB in the front axle (easy to unlock-steering control) or at least an LSD?
I m saying this having in mind the sensitivity of the sidekick's front axle-IFS system.
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I've never had a mechanical locker in my truck.  I was refering to the abiliy to steer.  When I'm on dry dirt it is almost imposible to steer.  When I hit the mud or snow the tires slip enough that it turns easy.
Depending on the mud conditions, ruts and all, some times I have the wheels cranked and I just go straight.  I imagin its the same for other lockers.
I've never been in a situaction where I wish I had mech. lockers and all the time liking the ability to decide "On or Off".
Usally it comes down to money, time and ability for most people.  They are more expensive.  They take more time to set up.  Lastly they are harder to set up.
But any locker that works is better than none.  :P
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thank you all .Especially lil_truck,Kerry.That was the answers I was looking for.Now I understand completely.Most possibly I m going for the Calmini LSD in the front axle.I m also thinking about the ARB but since I m not that experienced in off road driving(at least not as most of you are) ,there's a great chance that I ll cause damage to the CV's.The LSD is more safe I guess and its better than an open differential.With the rear locker,I think the overall final result will be satisfying in all types of terrain.
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Ohhh.  :) Im starting a second rig also. Im debating on doing a sas rig just to be able to really compare, just for my own curiosity. Im starting this spring.
mike
AH HA! I knew it.... Those guys over at PBB must have changed your mind, right? :)
-Eric
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AH HA! I knew it.... Those guys over at PBB must have changed your mind, right? :)
-Eric
Dont count on it. I actually think my IFS car will do better but Id just like to know for sure that Im not just a stubborn ass who cant admit he's wrong. ;D If it truly works better so be it. I just dont belive the hype.
Mike
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Need your help ,please.
Its been almost a month now since I installed a Detroit EZ locker in the rear axle.The locker was operating good
at least as the Tractech manual was describing.During the last 10 days, I did some continouus and relatively hard off road driving,at least 3 hours a day.The last 3 days ,I noticed that the locker-sidegear doesnt unlock easily from the passenger's side rear wheel when turning ,especially on reverse.I think it is something like Tractech describes in the installation manual as "scuff".Also some vibration coming from the rear diff when starting from stop.I took the truck to my mechanic,and after some checking(without opening the casing) he said that it seems that the ring and pinion backlash has increased.And that I should ask tractech if this is normal.He thinks that the backlash must be re-adjusted,that is to be more "tight".
Notes:
1.The assembly-installation of the locker-differential was done according to the manufacturers service manual.
2.The ring and pinion are Calmini's 5,83:1.Those were installed and adjusted according to Richmond's installation manual.
3.Before installing the locker didnt have any similar problem with the backlash.
4.U joint is ok.checked.
Can you give me your opinion on this ? What should I do?
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The locker does not affect the backlash,
my best guess is the setting that the
gears were at has changed, as in the lock
on the ring came off and is turning :(
or the setup was loose and now it's wearing
in some and has increased backlash.
I don't think in a month of driving gear wear
is a factor unless your gears are eating
themselvs up, which is a bad thing :o
I know the crush sleve has to be torqued
properly, and that keeps the preload on
the pinion, if this was not done right it might
be moving the pinion around, bad thing as
that eats gears fast :(
You also said you now have a vibration in
the driveline, which sounds like the pinion
could be loose from improper install, who did
the installation of your gears ??? You ??
if not get back there and get it fixxed before
you eat a set of $300 gears, and if you did it
then you should recheck the torque and backlash
right away, yes I know it's a PITA but it's got to
be somthing wrong and it can't stay like that.
Good luck,
Darrin
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The locker does not affect the backlash, my best guess is the setting that the
gears were at has changed, ...
... you should recheck the torque and backlash
right away, yes I know it's a PITA but it's got to
be somthing wrong and it can't stay like that.
Good luck,
Darrin
Very good advice.
~Nate
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Thanks for your replay.
I havent done these adjustments-installations myself.I m not that technically inclined.
On Wednesday I ll go to the mechanic again,since I ll have also a Calmini LSD installed in the front diff.We will check also the torque and backlash for the rear diff.If the set up was loose,does this explains the more harsh sound of the locker when turning (reverse or not) and the vibration I feel ?
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And another question.How many thrust washers are per each side gear ?2 or 1 ?
Can someone tell me whats the difference between a thrust washer and a shim when we are reffering to the side gears?
Also can someone give me the torque load for the ring and pinion .....
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I don't remember the shims/thrust washers, I
did as little to the setup as I could so as to not
have problems while running, my trucklet is a DD
and I wanted it to be reliable.
I don't know the Suzuki spec for torque on the pinion
nut, but some other diffs with crush sleves go to 250-300
Ft Lbs before the sleve crushes down, then it drops
down to where it's supposed to be, I think the crush sleve
is a weird design, seems strange to have to torque
the thing so high just to crush down a sleve to keep
the pinion at the right preload.  :P
Backlash is a pinion to ring gear adjustment, has nothing
to do with the locker, however if you get the shims and
thrust washers too tight/wrong in the diff, this could cause
the strange goings on in the rearend.
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Pinion preload is around 5 inch lbs rotational. and yes it can take up to 350# to get the sleeve to start to crush but once it starts the preload can increase quick. Pull your rear shaft and check to make sure the pinion nut didnt back off (ie) there should be an area on the nut that could be peened into a flat on the pinion itself. I have seen these come loose generally it has been with a spool though.
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A manual locker does add what feels like backlash. There is no way to reduce it because its designed that way. However I cant be sure that what you have happening is normal. I think its worth a double check.
Mike
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thank you all for your replies.We ll check it tomorow or maybe even today.I ll post the checking results.
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I discussed the problem with my mechanic this morning,read once more the installation guide,and we found something strange with the side gear thrust washers.We remember that the stock side gears had 2 thrust washers each. ???
On the other hand,Tractech manual and almost every article about locker installation (LockRight or Detroit EZ) I found ,says that the stock thrust washers are to be used and to put one thrust washer on each side gear. Maybe this is the reason (we put the 2 stock per side gear) that the locker was not unlocking easily on close turns (forward and reverse) ?
What is the correct thing to do ???
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Well I went out to get the box that the
locker came in and guess what, no book
for instructions :( but here is what's in
the box, 4 spider gears, 2 thrust ?? washers
they are dished and fit the spiders, 1 long
cross pin and 2 half size cross pins, that's
it, so I guess 2 of the washers are in the
diff right now, sorry I can't remember more,
I did this 2 years ago so I''m doing good
to find the box with my old stuff in it :)
hope this helps
Darrin
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Thanks for your help.I think there's a bit of confusion related with the "thrust washers".(Or I am consfused with the techical terminology) .From a small research on the net ,about installation descriptions of lockers,I found that in some articles thrust washer is called the thin shim that goes outside of the side gear but also the spacer (thick) that goes with each clutch.The thrust washers I m reffering to,are the ones that go with the side gear.If I understand correctly,what you are saying is that in your diff now ,there should be one thrust washer on each side gear.... So I guess I ll leave one thrust washer on each side gear too.I m also waiting an answer from Tractech.
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The steps in both the Detroit and the Lock Rite EZ locker walk you through steps to remove the spider gears, replace them with the locker and reassemble your axle exactly as it came apart. The 1 or 2 washers that you are speaking of I believe are the shims removed from the spider gears or did you install the 5.83's at the same time?
Zig
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Well , yes,I m speaking of the shims that go with the spider gears.The 5,83's were installed 5 months ago.And when we opened the diff recently to install the locker,we saw that there were 2 shims on each spider gear( the stock ones).
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Well , yes,I m speaking of the shims that go with the spider gears.The 5,83's were installed 5 months ago.And when we opened the diff recently to install the locker,we saw that there were 2 shims on each spider gear( the stock ones).
If I remember correctly, the shims should be placed on the locker gears before you install them (according to instructions ???) But on my lockrite we had to use one of the two shims to make it fit (to tight with both). I had never had a rear end apart when I installed mine, went by the directions, and it is still working fine after many years. I do remember thinking that something was wrong due to the bucking (unloading) effect you get when turning. Then I learned how to drive with a locker and it's fine.
When you are turning, try to keep a constant throttle position, on gas or of gas, throughout your turn. If you try to neuteal throttle, or change from on to off the gas is when you get the bucking from the locker unloading.
HTH,
Zig
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If I remember correctly, the shims should be placed on the locker gears before you install them (according to instructions ???) But on my lockrite we had to use one of the two shims to make it fit (to tight with both). I had never had a rear end apart when I installed mine, went by the directions, and it is still working fine after many years. I do remember thinking that something was wrong due to the bucking (unloading) effect you get when turning. Then I learned how to drive with a locker and it's fine.
When you are turning, try to keep a constant throttle position, on gas or of gas, throughout your turn. If you try to neuteal throttle, or change from on to off the gas is when you get the bucking from the locker unloading.
HTH,
Zig
Thanks Zig.Yes first the shims were placed on the side gears.
Well,I also learned how to drive with a locker and still learning.When turning I m trying to keep constant throttle position.I saw that whenever I change the throttle position inside the turn,I have that bucking.Now when its not possible to keep it at a constant position (90' turns in city with much traffic for example) I m disengaging the clutch.Now with the  bucking effect,I m still having some difficulty when I m trying to park or turn on reverse,since I  try to keep a balance between throttle and  clutch  here.So when I m ready to park and finally disengage the clutch when the truck is still moving slightly,here I have that bucking effect.But this is normal,as you describe.
The problem is that I dont have the same "clicking" sound on both sides everytime ,when the locker unlocks.Furthermore as I mentioned in a previous post,I can feel that backlash has increased or at least something is more loose than it was in the past.My mechanic agrees.We will check it tomorrow finally.But his theory is the following: We installed the 5,83 r&p's 4 months ago aprox.and we used new crush sleeves,bearings,e.t.c
Recently we installed the locker with 2 shims on each side gear instead of 1.From the begining the locker was operating well but sometimes under increased throttle it produced a more hard "clicking".My mechanic thinks that 1.After a period of operation ,the new parts,bearings,e.t.c got slightly loose which is normal.
2.The locker with the 2 shims on each side gear was operating under stress(periodically or not) ,and thus passing the stress to the side bearings of the diff,
with  the final result of some more loosening in the diff/parts.I dont know if this affects the ring.
Anyway,he told me something like that as he tried to describe the cause of the problem.I m not a mechanic.Furthermore ,he doesn't think that there's any damage ,since the diff ,under normal driving conditions (or when driving on a straight line) produces no strange or loud sounds,and the locker when the truck is lifted engages and disengages smoothly.We ll know by tomorrow.One question that I have is this: the 2 shims that are now on the side gears are not of the same thickness.Which one should I leave on each side gear,the thicker one?
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I have none of the bad driving problems you
are having with your locker, and my settings
have not changed for over 2 years, I think you
got the shims in wrong or have too many, under
no power the side gear is allowed to ratchet, that is
the locker part moves inward to allow the teeth
on the locker and the sidegear to slip, but only
one side at a time is able to do this, when power
is applied the cross pins push the locker parts out
and into the side gears, not allowing the gears to
slip and locking the axle as if it were a spool, you
got somthing a little off, I wouldn't worry about the
health of the locker, but I'm worried about your
vibration and the Ring and pinion. Let us know.
Darrin
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Yes,I m also worried about the ring and pinion.... :(
I think that the cause of the problem might be a combination of the following:
1.2 shims per side gear installed.wrong.
Maybe the 2 shims during turns for example dont allow the locker part to move inwards and get the space it needs and thus the lockerpart teeth and sidegear operate under stress and very-very close close.Cause I dont have problem when it locks,but when it tries to unlock one wheel or another especially at 90 turns or very low speed.
2.Maybe the stress produced by the bad operation of the locker (due to mistake during installation) passed to the side parts in the differential and gave this "loose" effect..I dont know.....
I ll know tomorrow and I ll tell you.I just hope that everything is o.k in there,and that all it needs is the one extra shim to be removed and to re-adjust the ring.
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Here are the latest news....
Today we opened the rear differential.guess what....
no damage,no broken pieces,not even a mark on the ring or pinion.....just the ring was a bit loose...There was a loose set up probably from the time we installed the r & p's
...anyway , we agreed to do the following steps.
1.Revove one of the two shims that were on the side gear.
2.Reduce backlash according to manual.
So backlash was reduced and also one shim removed.
Remember what I said about  the two shims that were on the stock side gears and didnt have the same thickness??? Since the Tractech manual (as well as many installation descriptions of EZ locker on the internet show)said that one shim per side gear should be used,we choose to keep the thiner one.The differetial was re-assembled and we were ready to test the result................Wheel were constantly unlocked.We turned the left wheel and the right remained still......the locker couldnt lock the axles.... >:(
So we are a bit troubled.The stock side gears had two shims on each one.One shim was not as thick as the other was.Tractech manual said that one shim should be used on each side gear.Which one  should we use? We used the thinner one and the locker couldnt lock the axles.If you turned one wheel there's was that "click-click" sound.We have two options now....either use the thicker one only,or both of them.
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That's normal, did you drive it ???
a locker allows one wheel to turn
faster so the wheel you turned was
the faster wheel, and the clicking is
normal too, that's the ratcheting we
talked about, drive it before you tear
it down again.
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Yes ,if you turn a wheel faster than the other you have the "clicking" sound.But if you then turn the wheel slower, the locker should lock the axles so that both wheels turn .Thats what the manual says.
Anyway,today we opened again the differential  :o , we replaced the thinner shim with the thicker one.We also adjusted the backlash.We test it.Everything was fine.The wheel that was turned faster was disengaging easily,and "clicking" was smooth and not loud this time,and also was the same from both wheels.With the 2 shims in,the clicking was more loud from the right wheel,the one that couldn't get unlocked easily.We tested the truck also on /off road.Everything was good.
For example with the 2 shims in,when I was trying to enter a normal turn with steady throttle,the outside wheel was clicking loudly, the "click" sound was heavy and the truck behaved as if someone was pulling it from the front and another one from the rear.In turns, I was disengaging the clutch almost everytime.Now with steady throttle,the truck enters the turn smoothly and exits the same,with a smooth "clicking" coming from the outside wheel.
So if anyone has two shims in his stock diff,and wants to put an EZ Detroit locker,use the thicker shim.
Of course we installed the Calmini LSD in the front axle,no probs here.
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Great to hear that all is well, how many times apart ???
3, Ohh well, it's working good now.
Hey let me know how the LSD in the front is working,
I'm torn between the LDS and an ARB, LSD for the
price and the ARB because it's just the trickest solution
to go from total normal to hard core Kick Butt Offroad.
Thanks,
Darrin
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Everything o.k at last..... :)
after 2 days with problems
(http://www.off-road.gr/albums/Grvit_Calmini_Vitara/abk.jpg)
the results are ...
rear diff (Detroit EZ)
(http://www.off-road.gr/albums/Grvit_Calmini_Vitara/abo.jpg)
and front diff (Calmini LSD)
(http://www.off-road.gr/albums/Grvit_Calmini_Vitara/abm.jpg)
:) :) :)
In a couple of days I ll tell you about the LSD.I ll test it.
thank you all very much for your help.
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wow,  will those calmini stickers really stay on the a-arms? lol
Stu
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they are already one year there....... :)
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Usually there is only 1 thrust washer/shim under each sidegear if there are 2 then try to keep the combined sizes between left and right within 0.100 of a mm of each other and make sure your pinion shaft inserts easily into the block with not to much play.
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Usually there is only 1 thrust washer/shim under each sidegear if there are 2 then try to keep the combined sizes between left and right within 0.100 of a mm of each other and make sure your pinion shaft inserts easily into the block with not to much play.
Thanks.I used only the thicker one on each side gear.Everything works fine now.
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Great to hear that all is well, how many times apart ???
3, Ohh well, it's working good now.
Hey let me know how the LSD in the front is working,
I'm torn between the LDS and an ARB, LSD for the
price and the ARB because it's just the trickest solution
to go from total normal to hard core Kick Butt Offroad.
Thanks,
Darrin
The LSD is working fine.I was driving for example on an icy road yesterday.I saw the difference between how a locker works and an LSD works.There,when both rear wheels were spinning sometimes,the front were keeping the truck on the way,pulling forward.Also in mud the LSD worked good.I think if someone does everything except rockcrawling,a combination of LSD and Locker is the best.When the terrain is muddy,wet,the LSD helps the truck to have a more stable course,while at the same time the locker may cause both wheels of the locked axle to spin.I m very satisfied.
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Great, Thanks for the report. ;)
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OK, I now understand why no one add's a forwarding link and just tell us to use the forum search because this forum is not set up in a way we can subscribe to the different threads we are interested in! ERRRR!
OK, so I am interested in finding (see article archives "Zig's Beef)
SO, I go and type in "Zig's Beef" in the Search window and get these two results:
[1]Diffs- r-diff spacer & fr-diff pinion mount
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3032.0
[2] Sidekick-Lockers-front alum.casing
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4002.0
OK, I'm on Page:2 and will just continue reading, but it is very frustrating when you want to go off and search these other tangents that people suggest and can't just click a link or actually find it via the search.
With that, "search archives on Hagens Explorer CV set up".... yea, I will just wind up reading the whole forum and find it one day!
I am going to set up a folder on my computer and save the different threads so I can go back and refer to them and if ever I post something and suggest something, hopefully I can just put a link to that particular thread.
Sorry, yes, I'm whinning... I'm going back to page-2 and picking up where I left off and will get caught up soon!!! I don't even have my Sidekick yet - just doing my research!!!
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According to your experience,with a set up like the one I have now (Calmini 3"+3",Anvil-steel 3rd member-5,83 r&p's-Centerforce II-Warn premiun hubs-26 spline driveshafts-steering stabiliser-idler arm brace)
is it safe enough to install an automatic locker in front and which one do you propose ? What moves should I avoid when off roading ?
An other option is to put an LSD in the front axle,mainly to reduce stress,but .....its not a locker ..... :(
(sorry for any mistakes I do,english is not my native language) :-[
I have been locked in the front for years and never trashed a front housing :-/ I must be lucky from what I have heard about others experiances. I have trashed many half shafts and CV's. I recently upgraded to the Anvil w/ XL-7 3rd member (see article archives "Zig's Beef) I dont believe that you will have any trouble with a locker and the Anvil/steel 3rd set up. The problems that you will probably have will be with the CV's breaking under the extra force. Keep in mind that will be determined by your driving style and how heavy your right foot is. I drive my Kick HARD, and I expect to break stuff with the trails I ride and the vehicles I follow/lead through the trails.
If you are running manual lockout hubs there will be no difference of driving in 2wd than what you have now. Off road you will gain an incredible amount of traction with a front locker. Your steering will not be as tight turning in 4x4 with a locker and you will have ALOT more steering wheel pull from the wheels grabbing traction. With manual steering it can be tough to turn if the locker locks in, but I quickly learned to feather the throttle to lock/unlock the locker to allow turning.
I personally think you will enjoy being locked in the front, as long as you dont mind switching out CV's on the trail.
Also see the article archives on Hagens Explorer CV set up. It will be a good upgrade for you if you find yourself breaking CV's after installing the Locker
I hope this helps out,
Zig
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My dad was down at the bad lands orv park in Attica IN. when he broke his stock IFS axle. When he was only going up this relativly easy hill when he was almost to the top he heard this bang then he pushed the clutch in and as he rolled down he seen this black spot were the 90 weight oild had ran out of the diff. When he got home he looked and seen that he twisted the pinion bearing carrier all the way around it and that was wothout a locker. some that means the stock sidekick aluminum IFS diff is very weak. So the only thing a stock trackick with its factory IFS system should be used for is going through snowed in roads
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Yes, the fronts seen to be weak, it's all in the skinny pedal.
I have run the stock aluminum diff for years, with 33" swampers and a turbo
without any breaks, until those |removethispart|@#$# jeepers blocked me in and I had to
back up onto this boulder to get out, BANG, front broke, it's reverse you
got to watch out for
Wild
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well my dad was going forward when he broke his i guess heat is a big problem because he only had 29s and he broke it.