ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Z3bra on December 20, 2003, 12:50:07 AM
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Has anyone looked at swapping the drivetrain from an Isuzu Rodeo/Amigo? I know on the first gen rodeo's the output for the front drive is on the correct side to work in a trackick. The 2.8 liter v6 they use is just the 60 degree GM V6 which is pretty easy and inexpensive to get parts for and common in both front and rear drive vehicles with some minor differences in the heads between the front and rear drive versions. Also the 2.8 can pretty easily be upgraded into a 3.1 with all the cars using the GM 3.1 like buicks etc, they're so common it's scary. The other plus side is that the Rodeos should all have the 4 speed version of the automatic that's already in trackicks with the added benefit that 1st and 2nd gear in the rodeo version of the 4L30 are higher numerically. (3.00:1 or so vs 2.40:1 for first gear I believe). The downside is that to swap in the Auto you'd be forced to use the ECU and injection out of the rodeo as there's no such thing as a non electronically controled 4L30 tranny that I've been able to find in looking into this. (no stanndalone computers either that I've been able to find, but if someone knows of one definitely let me know). Should fit fairly well in a trackick engine bay being it's the narrow V6 unlike the 4.3. Weight would obviously be more than the alloy block in the trackicks, I'd guess 150-200 lbs but realistically I doubt that's going to be a show stopper.
Anybody else looked at this? Seems like there's plenty of rodeos out there bound to be some wrecked ones. Worst case the big 4 cyl in the Amigos and base Rodeos could be an option as well.
Anyway lemme know what you guys think, seems like these would be much easier and cheaper to swap in than the Vitara and XL 7 engines as well as cheaper to maintain.
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You want torque? Go with the 3.8 (229) or the 4.3 (262) V6. There are way more options available for the 3.8's and 4.3's then there are for the 2.8's. Im running the 229......
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I was considering something like that, but dont have access to a garage and I dont want to work in the snow too much. If you change trannies, you have to make sure the tranny / tcase is not longer than what you have in the kick, because the driveshaft is already too short, you wont have a very nice shaft angle. I would be interested in a custom bellhousing to mate a large 4 or small 6 into my truck though, prefer to keep my 5spd, unless I can get a whole drivetrain and drop it in complete. But at the same time, I dont want to increase the weight too much
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Would the zuki tranny be capable of handling the extra torque from the V6?
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I have looked at taking a 3.0 out of an ranger and droping it in but of course weight was the stoper. the engine made like 150+ Hp and i almost wet myself when i saw around 170+ foot pounds of torque in the lower RPMs. I liked it. lata atu
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The beauty of swapping the rodeo drivetrain is that you would just use that as a whole unit. The only thing you'd have to mess with is getting your driveshafts modified which is reasonably inexpensive. Might not hurt to rotate the rear axle up in the front a little too (ala Mike Hagen) to take the angle out of the rear U-joint, but that's a good idea anyway with a lift. The front one using the stock IFS isn't an issue period other than maybe needing to lengthen it of course. You'd also obviously have to deal with grafting the EFI from the Isuzu into the Trackick's wiring harness but that's pretty standard fare for any engine swap.
I know in the case of the 4L30 vs the 3L30 it's only an inch longer, not sure about the size of the rodeo's t-case but I doubt it's a whole lot bigger than ours is since the rodeo's not exactly all that big. Look at the Amigo for that matter it's pretty close to us in terms of wheelbase. There are 5 speed Rodeos out there using the 2.8 I'm pretty sure. I'll try to see if I can find one in a junkyard to measure next time I make a run through the junkyard part of town. (I figure I'd rather have one longer day when I expose my speakers to being ripped off by the hordes of illegal immigrants that frequent the junkyards here in Phoenix rather than make 10 separate trips to expose them to the risk).
I wouldn't be opposed to the 4.3, but I think the 90 degree GM engine would probably be too wide to fit comfortably in the engine bay and still allow you to access stuff to work on it. Then again if it fits in the sammy it could be done. I know I saw a picture a couple years ago of someone who put the buick GN turbo engine in a tracker down in australia to drag race the tracker. Not exactly what I'd think of doing but it looked kinda interesting.
I have heard that supposedly you can swap the aluminum heads and stuff off some of the newer car versions with the 60 degree GM v6 and save weight as well as have a better designed combustion chamber for a little more power. The 60 degree also weighs less than the 4.3 does overall and at least with the Isuzu tranny's your outputs from the T-case are already in the right spot whereas a 4.3 from an S-10 is on the drivers side for the front output.
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Anything is possible, and sounds doable.
what about the axles? SAS or IFS? Stock stuff might not like the added weight, I know GVs don't, and the GV 2.5L is much lighter, gotta have at least a a few pounds in the 2.8.
What would interest me would be the axles. D44 in the rear is almost dead on for the GV, and the front axles look bigger. I wonder if an entire Izzy front axle could be fabbed in, using Kick A-arms. If the Izzy a single or dual control arm?
I agree, GV and XL7 motors are still a little pricy, considering they are just now 6 years old. But, they are a sweet motor, and a lot more modern. Suzuki
s motorcycle racing tech went into it. Multi cam, timing chain, MPFI, yeah baby. They make a 2.5L motor for Pike's Peak that's over 900HP.
Nice low end grunt, and they take the revs. As soon as some cams are available (currently under the works), and a port job and the motors should really fly. In another few years when more turn up for salvage, I think they will be the motor to swap in. Heck, all the Kick underdrive options will work with this on a Sammy. On a Kick, driveshafts might need to be lengthed or shortened, but otherwise will slip in.
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They make a 2.5L motor for Pike's Peak that's over 900HP.
I beleive that is a Twin Engine output, like two engines combined output.
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Yeah I'm thinking a SAS would alleviate the weight problem, worst case get some custom springs made, they shouldn't be too much really.
The rodeos/amigos are a dual control arm setup with torsion bars first gen and leaf in the back. THey went coil in the 2nd gen in the back but I think the fronts are still torsion bars. The CV axles definitely look pretty stout though from the pics I've seen. Maybe the outer cups from ours could be made to fit with a little work, not any different than the Nissan Maxima type deal really when you think about it.
Good to know the motorcycle guys helped on the new V6, my friend has a Hyabusa and that thing screams. Kinda surprises me given Suzuki's motorcycle involvment how weak the stock engine is in terms of output. The bottom end seems pretty well built though even on the 1.6 if you have the newer ones with the floated piston pins and the fully counterweighted crank. The casting for the block is really nice too, but the head is just nasty by comparison, you can see where they didn't quite have the foam blocks for the investment casting lined up very good on mine and the seams are very obvious.
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I beleive that is a Twin Engine output, like two engines combined output.
You are correct.
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I beleive that is a Twin Engine output, like two engines combined output.
one engine 995hp!
http://www.supercars.net/garages/EBoNix3000/63v2.html
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I started researching this. First off, you dont want to use the Isuzu trans/T-case. The trans is computer controlled and trying to make it work could be a nightmare. Also, the T-case is huge, I think its a full size GM one, not positive about that though. What I did find in my research is that the 4L30 is basically a 3L30 (tracker 3-speed) with an overdrive attached and electronic shifting. Both transmissions have removable bellhousings, and from what I can tell, you can mount the Isuzu bellhousing with the GM 60* pattern to your existing Tracker 3-speed automatic transmission. I have been unable to confirm this. I had my hands on the Isuzu bellhousing at the bone yard but the guy wanted $300 for it. If this is the case it would be an easy swap and would open up some good possabilities...
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so youre saying, a 2.8 or 3.1 engine might go in with a new bellhousing?
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so youre saying, a 2.8 or 3.1 engine might go in with a new bellhousing?
yes, it might. I am trying to confirm this but havent gotten my hands on an Isuzu bellhousing yet. I looked at one and the bolt pattern looked the same but I wont know until I get one. I hope so. The tail housing also looks to be interchangable which is good news for the Isuzu guys, that would allow them to use OTT's doublers.
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I also thought the bell housing on the auto was
removable, just looking at it, I have clean areas
where I think trans fluid is leaking between the
bell and the trans body. :)
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I am trying to confirm this but havent gotten my hands on an Isuzu bellhousing yet.
I might be getting my hands on one so we might know within a week or so...
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The bell housing on the 3 speed is absolutely removable. I know this from experience, I broke a corner off of one and had to replace it which actually was a good thing otherwise I'd have had to buy a whole new transmission instead of just spending 30 bucks on a used bell housing.
BTW the big o-ring between the bell housing and the transmission is a pain in the butt to install so when you get ready to put yours back together be forewarned. It slips off a lot and you obviously want it to stay where it's supposed to be or you'll be leaking ATF like there's no tomorrow.
Zooky, if you get your hands on an Isuzu bell housing, try to verify that all the fluid passages machined into the tranny side of it are the same as the three speed version's fluid passages. That is in my opinion the bigger uncertainty between the two. I'd be very surprised if the bolts that attach the bellhousing to the tranny don't match up. Honestly, that's the only real hurdle I see with swapping it.
GM used/uses this tranny in a bunch of stuff so it's pretty adaptable which is why I'd all but guarantee that different bell housings will bolt up. It's got to be much cheaper to manufacture different bellhousings than it is to manufacture different xmission casings I would expect. Chalk that sort of manufacturing change at GM up to competing with Japan in fact. That said, they still don't have anything on the old Datsun/Nissan stuff in the way of overall interchangability between models.
Some examples of stuff it's used in are the Cadillac Catera, Isuzus, Opels (in europe although that's basically the same car as the Catera). They also sell it to BMW and it ended up in the Z3 roadster and some 3 series models. It's pretty early on at this stage, but if you're familiar with the Megasquirt fuel injection ECU project, there's an offshoot of it called the Megashift. Might be a possibility anyway.
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**continued from above**
What I was thinking is that since we're not necessarily concerned with a cushy ride, the control aspect of an automatic isn't that complex compared to an engine's ECU. Basically as in a non electronic automatic, the shift points are determined by RPM and the pressure created. With some pressure transducers and a bit of work, it might not be all that tough to fool a 4L30E into working like a non electronic version. An Isuzu factory manual which lists the shift points etc and the associated flow charts for the logic behind the shift control might be a good start, I'm going to see if I can get any of this from the Haynes book next time I'm at the auto parts store. (probably a long shot since Haynes and Chilton suck with regard to that sort of info typically). Wish I knew someone that worked at an Isuzu Dealership that would let me take a look at the factory book. Worst case there's an Isuzu/Chevy dealer 2 miles up the road from me, asking em might even be enough unless they're complete weenies. (probably a safe bet expecting them to be weenies as they are a stealer er dealership). Not a whole lot of liability involved in letting me look at a tech pub though so maybe I'll luck out.
Anyway, the only problem I see with the 60 degree v6 by itself with the 3 speed vs the 4 is that I'm not sure running around at 4000 rpm all day like you would be on the freeway with the 3 speed is what the engine is designed for. If you're going to go this route then definitely plan on building it up right and doing a very good internal balance and such with the help of a competent machine shop.
That's primarily why I was suggesting possibly putting it in with the 4 speed and T-case as a package. One other option with the 4 speed *might* be to use the t-case from a tracker/kick with the 4 speed and the v6. Not sure it would just bolt up but it might be worth looking into at least. If the 4L30 is so universal, it would make sense they would keep stuff like the rear output and bolt pattern standardized as well. Mostly depends on whether or not they changed this between the 3L30 and the 4L30.
I'm also trying to verify if the 4L30 in the first Gen Rodeos is possibly a standalone controller rather than integrated with the engine's ECU. If anybody knows for sure chime in here. If it is standalone, swapping it would be easy and provided the Tracker/kick T-case bolts up it would be more or less a bolt in deal. (Also assuming that the fluid passages are the same between the Rodeo bell housing and the tracker/kick bellhousing).
I guess the main reason I'm kinda stuck on using the 4L30 from the rodeo is because the 1st and 2nd gears are much better suited to a truck in the 4L30 on the Rodeo. Since the 3L30 is essentially the same as the 4L30 other than the addition of the overdrive, it might also be possible to swap the first three gears into a Tracker/Kick 3 speed for some better low end gearing. 3rd gear is 1:1 like in the tracker/kick, and it probably would just involve swapping in the planetary set from the 4L30. Wouldn't solve my highway driving RPM issue but it would make for better offroading if nothing else.
Honestly I like the idea of the V6 with the 4 speed and the V6's ECU/Tranny controller with the Tracker/Kick t-case bolted on the back if it can be bolted on the best of all these Frankenstein approaches. Should work OK since the only thing you'd have to maybe work some wiring magic on is fooling the electronic shifter into thinking it's permanently disengaged. Also if you have an older Tracker/Kick, putting an engine out of a newer Rodeo (even if just a year newer) generally is enough to get you around emissions related headaches in most states.
If the t-case is the full size GM one that by itself might open a few options in terms of parts availability and upgrades other than it's kinda on the large side.
Oh and if anyone's considering contacting the GM powertrain guys via email from their website, don't waste too much time, I tried it a year or so ago and the best response I could get was a form letter email back from em.
If on the other hand you have some connections that work there, give em a nudge for us collectively.
Anyhow, enough rambling for one post, I'm stuck here alone working on Christmas so what else am I gonna do today provided nothing breaks? Gotta love the computer babysitting job I have, if nothing breaks it's like being a fireman without any fires to put out. (Sure there's a lot less in the way of on the job risk, and it's not as big of a hit with the chicks, but I'm married anyway so who cares.)
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so my standard bellhousing can be replaced for a gm 2.8 right? whatabout the input shaft? how would that bearing work?
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I believe the manual transmission bell housings are part of the main housing casting, it's just on the auto's that it's detachable.
I know all the information I've been able to find shows the same dimensions for the torque converter listed for both the 3 and 4 speed L30's. Again to keep manufacturing costs low, the more parts that are common, the cheaper it is to make it in mass production. Input for the Torque converter is most likely the same between the 3 and 4 speed versions. I've been talking to an Isuzu guy here in town, he thinks the early 4 speed versions in the first gen Amigos/Rodeos have a standalone transmission computer. This would make swapping one in pretty easy. Won't be able to check on that till next week at the earliest though.
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Ahh the bell is the front of the trans too, I
thought it was just bolted onto the front of
the trans.
Big rubber O ring huh, that's probably where my
trans is leaking from, always has had a leak, not
bad, just enough to need a quart of fluid about
once a month or so. Problem is you got to pull
the motor or trans to fix it :P, good thing fluid
is not too expensive.
The Auto trans is Made In France, by GM
The Man trans is a Japanies unit, built by ???
So no swap for the JS and JX models unless they
had an auto trans, how about GEO models, what
were the reasons they came with auto trans ???
This is good link stuff, keep it going :)
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damnit. I really wanted a 200 hp 3.8,
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ok, who has access to a wrecking yard? I need to know how long my drivetrain is compared to a toy or other import 4x4. I really like the 22re engines. Which other trucks have aluminum blocks?
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Don't get me wrong, I'd love a V6 with a 5 speed. I guess that limits you to the GV engine or you could swap an Isuzu 5 speed that's got the V6 bellhousing in along with the GM V6.
That might not be a bad way to go anyway. It's just the fact that you run into the heavy and big t-case if you did that. Then again with the V6 who cares if you have a heavier t-case anyway if it'll fit reasonably well.
You might even be able to run the 2.4/2.6 liter 4 cyl from an Isuzu. Not sure if it fits easily but considering it also comes from an IFS truck with the passenger side drop it might be pretty easy. It would certainly make for an improvement over the 1.6. Considering it's normally used to drag a 4000lb truck around instead of a 2500lb truck. I would guess there's much lower demand for that engine compared to a Toyota 22R so you could probably get one dirt cheap too.
Not sure which ones have alloy blocks, I believe the current DOHC Isuzu V6's are but they're heavy anyway with the extra machinery from being a DOHC V6.
Wildgoody,
On the Trackers there's either the base or the LSi model. The LSi Just has a split rear seat, more plastic trim inside that covers stuff like the A and B pillars completely instead of being an insert surrounded by painted metal. The inside panel on the doors also covers the whole thing instead of being an inset piece surrounded by metal. It also has the front seats with the separate headrest pieces. Nothing too much fancier all in all though. The auto's definitely available on the LSi, but I think it was available on the base model too.
The manual transmission is probably made by a company like Aisin or Hitachi. Hitachi makes a ton of parts like differentials that are used in Nissans and Subarus among others. Toyota uses someone else for transmissions but I can't think of who it is offhand.
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??? So is the trans. on my 2001 swap a 4L30? Does anyone make shift improver kits or is it completely controlled by the ECM? It has the normal or power mode switch,which makes it shift a little harder,but i would like to raise the shift points at least 1000 rpms.
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I am working with an Isuzu guy over on POR to figure out these 4L30/3L30 issues. The bellhousing issue benefits us, what I (may have) found that benefits them is that the tailhousing T-case adapter from the Tracker automatic may bolt onto the Isuzu 4L30. This would allow them to use OTT's adapters to allow them to have dual T-cases or allow them to bolt in a toyota T-case and have all the Toyota gearing options. Big bonus for them. If you were to put the Isuzu drivetrain in your rig, that would be a way to get rid of the huge Isuzu T-case and get some gearing options. There is a thread over on Pirate in the Isuzu section.
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??? So is the trans. on my 2001 swap a 4L30? Does anyone make shift improver kits or is it completely controlled by the ECM? It has the normal or power mode switch,which makes it shift a little harder,but i would like to raise the shift points at least 1000 rpms.
If you are talking about a 4-spd auto from the 2001 Vit/GV/XL7. it's not a GM tranny. It's a AISIN Warner tranny. Tranny is electronicall controlled, including the troque coverter lock-up. All the power/normal switch does is change the shift points. I assume that could be reprogrammed.
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:( Thats what i thought,i've been looking for an easy way to raise the shift points for 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. If it's electronically operated by the ecm reading the speed sensor a person should be able to fool the ecm into thinking it's reading a lower speed and holding the shift longer? Like maybe a inline resistor with the speed sensor wire to the ecm? Does anyone know of any place that reprograms our ecm's?
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Zooky, The guy I was talking to with the Isuzu said someone's asking a bunch of 4L30 questions on POR, guess he meant you it sounds like. (he's also looking at swapping a 4.9 liter caddy v8 into his truck with a 4L60 which sounds fun.)
Oh I'm pretty sure Aisin-Warner is who makes the Toyota trannies too now that Yankee Tim mentions it. Jatco makes the Nissan and Mitsubishi ones, not sure on Subaru, Honda I believe makes their own stuff for the most part.
Really you should probably be happy with the Aisin-Warner slushbox, generally any Japanese made auto tranny is better than any American one. (so a transmission guy told me anyway) but if you do use an American one then GM automatics are the best among those.
As far as reprogramming the controller, it might be possible, depends on whether it uses flash or is actual ROM code. It would require someone to facilitate a way to dump the contents of the existing code and then reverse engineer it. It's not unheard of but probably would be time consuming to the point of not being economically feasable.
The easier way would be to make a piggyback or standalone box that gives the tranny the input it's expecting (such as to shift or lock the Torque converter) when you want it to instead of when it normally would.
It would have to use some sensors for input, I'd guess either road speed or the driveshaft RPM, engine rpm, engine vacuum, the current gear the transmission is in, the gear that the selector is in (to override an upshift if you've got it in 2 or 3 for instance).
The easiest way is to just fool the factory computer by way of altering the input it receives from the sensors. You could encounter problems here depending on the level of integration between the stock Engine ECU and the Transmission portion of it such as a shared Engine RPM sensor for instance or something coded into the ECU.
Using something to analyze this data and remap everything probably wouldn't be all that tough especially compared to something like the actual engine management system for the EFI.
Basically you're looking at something that only needs to make 3 or 4 actual output signals. Shift up, shift down, stay in the gear it's in, and lock/unlock the torque converter. Something like an inline resistor within the controller or on one of the input signals ought to change when the output signals are sent but it would take some experimenting with to get it all the way dialed in.
I wonder if the electronically controlled Autos have a mechanical only limp mode much like many EFI systems have that could be exploited. Might not have the ideal shift points but would work like they used to work. Something to consider and investigate definitely. Might not actually be there though since chances are with the engine ECU and Tranny ECU integrated, if the tranny part craps out it means the whole thing craps out.
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Zooky, The guy I was talking to with the Isuzu said someone's asking a bunch of 4L30 questions on POR, guess he meant you it sounds like. ÂÂ
yep, sounds like me ;D
There are two different discussions going on here. One about using the Isuzu trans, and the other using an Isuzu bellhousing. I am interested in the bellhousing to keep it as simple as possible. I have a 4L30 overhaul manual and there is a 'limp mode' and it shows the Trooper electrical inputs. You should pick it up, its like $15 and has some good info. Its at work so I cant take a look at it now.
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OK, heres the scoop. I just received word from my Isuzu guy that the tracker tailhousing/T-case adapter will fit on the 4L30, there is one bolt hole slightly off but thats a minor issue, now we just need to dertermine if the spline count is the same between the 4L30 and the Tracker T-case. But this info means nothing to you guys. What might mean something is that the 60*GM V6 bellhousing is being sent to me to try it on. He posted a pic of the bellhousing bolt pattern (on Pirate) and it appears to match, but you know how that goes, they could have moved one hole 1/4" and this wouldnt work. I will post results when I try it out...
(http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=2285917)
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One bolt hole off is good news. Just put some nice Socket head alloy steel ones in the others and/or drill/tap/helicoil a new spot if needed.
I seriously doubt the bolt pattern for the bellhousing itself will be a problem.
For what it's worth in my looking for seals for my steering gearbox yesterday I called a few tranny shops since they might know a local source for oddball sized seals. (no luck in that venture so far however). Anyway the guy said the 4L30's are more failure prone than the 3L30's which he said are damn near bulletproof. I doubt it's that much of an issue though personally and it's probably because of the electronic control more than anything else.
Not trying to fork this whole thread, (Yes, fork, not a substitute for another 4 letter word that starts with F) but Heck I'm open to any or all of the subjects we've talked about here. If I can swap in the V6 and 4L30, that's cool, more power, better low gears, and overdrive yet still handy for commuting.
If ultimately only the 60º V6 with the Isuzu Bellhousing on the 3 speed, I can live with that too. After doing a little reasearch the 60º V6 should take higher revs ok with a few caveats.
Namely you want the 87 or newer version as the crank is internally balanced and uses a neutrally ballanced flywheel/driveplate. It also has a bunch of the smaller design changes such as newer design rear main seals etc implemented that went through about 4 changes in the first 4 or 5 years the engine was out there.
You also would want the aluminum heads with the improved combustion chamber and splayed valve configuration.
Most of the sites I've looked at show a 7000 RPM rev limit for the engine and in the 2.8 or even the 3.1 it's an "oversquare" engine meaning the bore is bigger than the stroke which generally means it'll be happy to rev vs an "undersquare" engine which is torque happy but not as high revving. Heck the 1.6 is about at the limit of undersquare as it is with it's rod ratio.
The 6500 RPM limit is basically maxing out the peak piston speed for any engine design as it comes from the factory. The 60º V6 would actually rev better than the 1.6 just based on that fact alone.
The only real complaint I have with it is the fact that it's a pushrod engine instead of overhead cam, but I'd have to say that it would be an acceptable compromise given the torque and horsepower potential dollar for dollar with the 60º V6 compared to the 1.6 8v or 16v even with a turbo, Then again I guess you could turbo or even twin turbo the V6 for some real fun and excitement. With the V6 you could get some fairly smallish turbos that spool up fast for some good low RPM torque.
A couple other interesting tidbits with the 60º V6 is that you can get a crate longblock from GM goodwrench performance that is a 3.4 liter version for about 1800 bucks for the complete engine. Probably less if you can get stuff at wholesale or dealer cost. Only real downside to this engine is that it's got the iron heads but a trip to the junkyard to pull the heads off a FWD car using the 60º V6 would make that an easy thing to fix. Less weight plus aluminum heads tend to be much more forgiving with high compression and ping than cast iron.
If you sent the junkyard aluminum "gen II" heads out for a good rework comparable to the ones that come with the crate engine and you'd probably save 30-40 lbs or so in addition to the other benefits of aluminum heads.
As it is the Iron block for the 60º V6 weighs about 100 lbs. If you've got $3500 or so burning a hole in your pocket GM does make and sell an aluminum "bowtie" 60º V6 that only weighs about 60 lbs by itself. Maybe if I win the Powerball jackpot tonight I could realistically consider that. (in addition to the stable of other vehicles I'd be buying, I'd have to hang on to the project cars because building em is half the fun and doing it without budget constraints could be really fun) Plus then I could afford to live in BFE comfortably with some required amenities like a T1 or better data connection and be able to avoid emissions testing altogether.
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** continued from last post **
** Note to Eric Bewley, can you up the allowed post size since I'm a longwinded SOB? **
Anyway like I said before I'm guessing the complete 60º V6 engine would probably be about 100-150 lbs more than the 1.6 is. I don't think that's a big problem and worst case, getting custom coils wound is always an option.
Of course there's still the option of the 4L30E bolted to the 1.6 with the tracker/kick bellhousing and t-case provided you can find a way to trick the transmission into working without a proper brainbox assuming that the ECU for it isn't a standalone.
All 3 options have their benefits.
The V6 and 4L30E with the Isuzu electronics for an easier swap that's not too bad in any capacity and should be able to pass emissions as long as the engine is out of something as new or newer than what it's going into.
The V6 on the existing 3L30 if that pans out, should be a fairly easy swap. The fuel supply method could be carb'd or efi depending on what your emissions test situation calls for and your comfort level of working with an aftermarket ECU setup.
The 1.6 with the 4L30E might be pretty easy if the limp mode shift points are acceptable provided there's no standalone ECU for it. You probably would want to at least see about forcing the torque converter to lock on the highway so you don't get nasty mileage if you go that route. That would be easy though since it's just a solenoid you could wire up to a switch and manually lock/unlock it. Whether or not that would become a big pain is up for grabs, I'm guessing it might though if traffic speeds up and slows down a regularly. It's probably good for a road trip though where the speed is fairly constant.
You would benefit from the overdrive and the better 1st and 2nd gear ratios. The only other installation issue is that you could end up needing to play with your driveshafts since the 4L30 transmission is about an inch longer than the 3L30 is. (That's what the GM powertrain website says anyway) This would also be necessary if you dropped the whole Isuzu drivetrain in the tracker/kick although you might be able to get away with mounting the V6 slightly forward compared to the 4 cyl. The length difference might even be small enough to get away with some spacers and such depending on your suspension's lift situation rather than actually shortening or lengthening the shafts.
Other than all of the above possibilities requiring money to perform them, there's not much of a downside to any of them. Sure they're not a true "bolt in" modification like the 4 door brake calipers, but they don't look horrible as far as engine swaps go either.
The real key piece in this is the bellhousing so if that doesn't work out this is really going to be a bummer.
Actually, if the fluid passages on the back of the bell housing from a 4L30 end up being the only problem but they're close to the same as the ones on the 3L30, there's probably the option of welding up/machining out the differences. Wouldn't really cost much to get that done I wouldn't think. Alternately if they're quite a bit different there might be the option of completely machining the old ones off, welding a slab of aluminum that's the correct size and thickness as what you machined off, and then machining the needed passages back into the welded on piece. That would of course cost more but since it pretty much would just be garden variety 2 axis milling in aluminum it wouldn't be too horribly bad. If you could get a CAD drawing of the required one to them and the converted tool paths from something like MasterCAM or Surfcam to the machine shop it would drop that price a lot too since their time spent in setup would be minimal that way.
There also might be the option of welding the tracker/kick bellhousing front half to the 4L30 bellhousing back half or the 3L30 back half to a 60º V6 front half to make this work too if they're fairly close dimensionally and the differences in the fluid passages end up being too significant to work out otherwise.
Honestly, given the fact that it looks like the bolt patterns will match up, I'm feeling better about the fluid passages working ok without modifications too. Guess we'll find out.
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I requested a photo of the oil passages. If it dosent match, we may be able to use the 4L30 pump to match the bellhousing. We can cross that bridge if we get to it ;D. The RPM thing may or may not be an issue. It will be for the guy who has no lift but if you have a lift and oversize tires it may save you from having to regear to get the high-range gearing back. It would work out good for a samurai guy with something like a Kicker2 where there is no high-range reduction and the stock 3.73 sami gears or 4.10 toyota gears.
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Yeah as it is with just the 31's on the 4.62's I run about 4000 RPM with 65 showing on the speedo which is about 73.5 actual speed.
That's usually just keeping up with traffic here on the freeway, and it does get a bit breathless at about that point.
The upside is that if I really hit the gas and it downshifts to 2nd I'm only showing 5500-6000 rpm if I'm going 55-60 going by the speedo. All things being equal with the 3 speed if you're running 4000 RPM on the freeway in 3rd at 70 or so, you're still going to be running 4000 RPM whether it's the V6 or the 4 cyl.
Was going to post this link earlier but I forgot to, but these guys seem to have a good selection of 60º V6 stuff. Stuff to consider anyway, if they make it others probably do as well.
http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/gm28stroker.html
Gives some HP estimates for different combinations and they have a faq about the engine family too.
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I found this in a search for the 4L30 Trans.
Automatic Transmission Manual for Isuzu/Toyota 4L30-E (Trooper/Rodeo BMW)
HUH Toyota !! I knew GM had a working relationship with
Toyota (look at the Chevy Spectrum, it's Toyota) but these trany's
might show up in more vehicles than first thought.
If they use it in Toyota, a 22R engine might be a bolt in for an
Auto trans in a Kick.
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More application information for the 4L30-E
1st Generation P'up (1988 - 1995) ?
2nd Generation P'up (1996 - current)
1st Generation Rodeo (1990 - 1997)
2nd Generation Rodeo (1998 - current)
1st Generation Trooper (1984 - 1991) ?
2nd Generation Trooper (1992 - 1998)
3rd Generation Trooper (1999 - current)
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Would the engine, tranny and t-case from an early Blazer fit? They're cheap as dirt around here because most of them are rusting into oblivion. Get a wiring harness from Painless Wiring, adapt the driveshafts and go.
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Transmission Model
Available Rear Wheel Drive: Gear Ratios
THM 180C (3L30)
2.400 First
1.479 Second
1.000 Third
----- Fourth
2.000 Reverse
4L30-E
2.400 First
1.479 Second
1.000 Third
0.723 Fourth
2.000 Reverse
4L30-E Optional
2.860 First
1.620 Second
1.000 Third
0.723 Fourth
2.000 Reverse
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this is kinda out of what you guys are talking about and you can beat me with sticks if you don't like it but i have a link where this guy put a Mazda RX-7 engine a sammy. ask if you want the link. lata stu
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You mean Wayne AKA Rotozuke ??
Ya He wants me to come down to the
shop to look at my turbo setup.
He's got a Mitsu 2.0 Turbo motor from
an Eclipse in it now.
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wow thats pretty sweet. i was thinking of a N/A 4G63 for my tracker but i never even started to look at it. lata stu
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Here's a good link with info about all GM 60 Degree Engines.
http://members.shaw.ca/betterthanyoutoo/60degreetree.htm
TN_T
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I got that bellhousing today and it bolts right on! WooHoo! I think the oil passages on the back are going to be an issue though, they dont match. I am comparing them to a TH180 from a Chevette I have in pieces (my Tracker transmission is currently installed) so there is still hope that it may match the tracker transmission, but I dont think so. Now I need to get ahold of another tracker bellhousing to compare...
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there is a Track/Kick with an auto in it,
I can see what they want for it and donate
it to the cause. Some BONEHEAD ripped the
valve body out of it, I wanted it for a spare
as I got 265,000 on my stocker, and it
might go sometime, so I wanna be prepaired.
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so a manual tranny out of what will bolt to my sunrunner?
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Well as far as bolt in trans, we don't know,
the guys with the auto trannys are taking
advantage of a design in the trans which is
a GM trans that has a removable bell housing.
This gives an option which hardly ever happens,
a tranny that has several engine options by replacing
the bell with the appropriate bolt pattern to fit serveral
different engines. I guess if you wanted to bolt in a BMW
engine, that would be an option too, but with the easy
availability of the GM 60* V6 why would you go for
a more expensive motor.
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rover3.5 olds buick215 engine... made of aluminum... its a 370 pound v8. Think I can bolt it to a 2.8 tranny and swap the whole nine yards in or is the rad gonna be a problem?
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I dunno if the Buick engine is the same bolt
pattern as the GM 60* Chevy motor. V8 is
different than V6 if I'm not mistaken.
Rover ??? do they use a GM engine ???
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gm built aluminum olds/buick 215(3.5) 63 and 64. Sold to rover in late 70s. All land rovers and range rovers have that engine. Olds bellhousing can be changed to small block chev, big pattern. May need 4.3 tranny/tcase
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this place squeeses them in mgbs, have custom bellhousings for cable setup as well. I believe they can make custom flywheel to accept inputshaft
http://www.aluminumv8.com/
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rover3.5  olds buick215 engine... made of aluminum... its a 370 pound v8. Think I can bolt it to a 2.8 tranny and swap the whole nine yards in or is the rad gonna be a problem?
Friend of mine stuffed one of these engines into his TR-7 years ago making it a TR-8, and the thing was a rocket when it ran well. Seems to me like it was kind of unreliable though and required a bunch of upkeep. Last I heard he had sold the engine and was looking for a FORD Powerplant to replace it. It's a beautiful car, molded flares, recaros and older 3-piece BBS's. Bling, Bling!
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Zooky:
Hey as far as a 3 speed bellhousing, give Hawk Suzuki a try, I think mine was only 30 or 40 bucks when I had to replace it. Not as good as free, but relatively inexpensive. Might have had 50 into it total with shipping but that was about 4 years ago so who knows now. **edit** You might see if they have one that's broken on the part that bolts to the engine but the back half is in good shape on. They'd probably let one like that go for shipping since it's worthless as a part. Probably worth a call anyway. Also, I just remembered, I *might* still have my broken one, although I think I was pissed off at it and broke it into tiny pieces with a hammer (long story). I'll double check when I get home though. Don't count on it though, the more I think about it the more I'm pretty sure I chucked it.
Wildgoody: The "optional" one is the one in the Isuzus.
Tracker_TN, not positive but most S-10 blazers I've seen have a driver side drop for the front so that's not going to be as easy to bolt in.
Something else to look at might be some of the Heep Cherokees with the 2.8, not sure if they had the passenger side drop still but I believe they were the mid-late 80's as far as model year goes. I know the earlier Cherokees had a passenger side drop.
If the passages are pretty close we can probably make it work I think. worst case if they're way off then we'd have to weld it up and machine em back in.
If you have access to a black crayon and some somewhat thin paper, (and a scanner or good digital camera) Do a "rubbing" on the back of the V6 bell housing and post it. I think the factory manual *might* have a pic of the 3 speed housing's passages so I could compare em.
It's probably not looking good if the Chevette housing is quite a bit different but then again the newer design in the tracker could be different from the chevette too (hopefully).
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here you go:
(http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=2287023)
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Here is some new information for the swap,
or just a trick auto with lower gear 1st and 2nd.
OK the 4L30 trans gears will fit into the 3L30
case, but the shaft, which is part of the gears is too
long, so to make it fit it needs to be shortened and
re-splined, now you got some lower gears for offroading
a better low 1 and 2 with the same 1:1 third, cool huh.
Now here is the flip side, the 4L30 trans that comes from a
Diesel Isuzu trooper is an all hydraulic valve body, and only
needs 1 wire input from a throttle position sensor, which all
SideKicks with autos have, so if the T-case will bolt on the the
4L30 this would be a trick 4 speed auto conversion, cool again.
Some more info to think about, now what ???
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Wildgoody, that sounds like a good deal.
If you get to actually swapping in a 60 degree v6 though I think I've found a much better option than the 4L30. The 4L60. It actually weighs 8 pounds less than the 4L30, has loads of aftermarket support including standalone controllers, and you can get a kit to slap a Dana 300 t-case on the back of it.
It also has a 3.0:1 1st gear and the overdrive is .69:1 so you'd probably get even better milage if you drive on the highway a lot. On existing automatic 4.62 gears I'd estimate about 2800 RPM at 70-75 depending on your tire size.
All in all it sounds like a much better way to go if you go with the 60 degree v6 swap.
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My comments on this thread are to help move the
information out to the readers, after all if you don't
know what can be done, nothing will change. As for
me and my Kick, I'm going to trick out the stock
equipment and make it as bullet proof as I can.
Lower 1 and 2 gears would be great for increased torque
with the larger spread of the 3 speed auto.
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so if the T-case will bolt on the the
4L30 this would be a trick 4 speed auto conversion, cool again.
the answer to this is YES, well kinda. There is an adapter between your automatic and T-case. This adapter will bolt directly  to the 4L30 with the exception of one bolt hole. This hole could possably be drilled into the transmission or maybe even left out, there are 6 other bolts and is no fluid in there to leak out. The output shaft of the transmission is 27(?) spline and the input of the Tracker T-case is 24(?) spline. Thats a small problem. You could take the Trackers output shaft and install it in the 4L30 from what I can tell.
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No the 3L30 is shorter that the 4L30, at least that's what
this trans guy said, he said the shaft could be shortened
and re-splined to fit the 3L30, but I don't know how you
would lengthen one, I would think a coupler would be an
easier solution. 24 to 27 splines, if there is room to fit it.
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the 3L30 its self is shorter because the 4L30 is basically the same with an overdrive section added to the front of it, and I mean that literly, it looks like they just bolted on another section. The output shaft its self is the same length but its a different diameter
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Ya that sounds right and jives with the trans guy,
so how you get an overdrive to work from the front
??? Strange, I would have thought it would be in
the tail section of the trans.
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From what I've been able to dig up, it's only 1 inch longer so not a huge difference anyway.
Isn't it the case with most overdrive auto's that the OD gear just basically bypasses the whole planetary gear system? That's why auto's were 3 speeds for such a long time as I understand it because of the way a planetary gear system works. Keeps it simpler anyway.
BTW, how's it going with the bellhousing and oil passages zooky?
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Why not the V-8 conversion in the sammi?
www.suzuki-conversions.com I think 500 hp is a little more than useable, but I guess we can never have too much power. Andrew
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There's always the Cadillac 4.1/4.5/4.9 engines, aluminum block, almost 300 ft lbs without even doing anything to it, and they're pretty easy to find in a junkyard. Downside is they have iron heads. Yeah that's right, aluminum block with iron heads, beats me, why have an alloy block and iron heads they say it's for durability but it's not as if aluminum heads are anything new and this isn't a very old design anyway. Might be a candidate if aluminum heads are available though, that should put it in the 450 lb range I'd guess. Bolts up to the GM 60 degree tranny pattern too (pretty popular with the v6 fiero guys as far as conversions go). Downsides, it weighs about 500 lbs for the long block, the 60 degree v6 is about 350 lbs. Stock G16 8v is what maybe 250-300 tops? (I can lift a long block myself so I'd lean toward it being closer to 250 if even that much though) The Caddy v8 has wet cylinder liners that aren't cast into the block. Sounds like a complete nightmare to rebuild. It costs more than the dime a dozen 60 degree v6's do both up front and for parts. With all the Cavaliers, Camaros, Firebirds, Isuzus, Luminas, Berettas, Corsicas, Malibus(I think anway) etc using the 60 degree v6, it's just flat out easier to find and parts are much cheaper and easy to find. The 60 degree v6 also will happily rev to 7000 RPM without any real modifications which matches the 1.6 8v's 6500 RPM redline pretty nicely. It's also much easier to get performance parts for than the caddy v8.
Why not a 4.3? 60 degree v6's are inherently balanced just like a straight or flat 6 is. (Bunch of trigonometry and the degrees between cylinders at TDC in the 720 degree engine cycle), 90 degree v6's like the 4.3 aren't inherently balanced although a 90 degree v8 is. All things considered a 60 degree v6 will be less inclined to eat itself as time goes by compared to a 90 degree v6. The 4.3 weighs a little bit more at about 450. A small block is about 550. Might save a little with aluminum heads or if you can afford it a bowtie block.
A mildly built 60 degree engine is more than enough power for a kick/track/sammy anyway really, not trying to build a drag racer, just a reliable 150-200 HP engine that still nets OK mileage with an overdrive transmission and big tires but still is able to pass on the freeway. It's also more compact to fit where an I-4 engine was. The 4.3 can fit too but it's quite a bit wider. Also, since the 60 degree was used in the firebird/camaro, it's easily found attached to a 4L60 tranny. (granted the 4.3 is too). Slap some aluminum heads off a newer front drive car with the 60 degree and you can shave off a few lbs as well as run higher compression.
If the caddy V8 (non northstar) weighed less by way of aluminum heads I'd maybe consider it. Also there's the Olds Aurora 4.0 V8 that's the baby brother of the Northstar, might weigh a little bit less.
500 HP in a tracker/kick/sammy would seriously make me crap my pants. Way too much power for that small of a vehicle considering it's relatively high center of gravity. (although 500 HP in my 2400 lb Datsun 240Z is quite fine, but it's also much less prone to rollovers)
I just think for the relative ease of the swap the 60 degree v6 probably can't be beat except by the 4.3 or a smallblock in terms of bang for the buck and they're probably too heavy.
That's why I like the 60 degree V6 anyway.
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BTW, how's it going with the bellhousing and oil passages zooky?
I received a V6 bellhousing for comparison but I never heard back for a guy who was going to provide a Tracker bellhousing. The V6 bellhousing was on loan and I had to return it. I got some good pics of it for when I do get ahold of one (anybody got one?). It seem odd that the OD was bolted to the front, but thats where it is. It liiks like they were in a rush to get the transmission out.
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Why not the V-8 conversion in the sammi?
www.suzuki-conversions.com I think 500 hp is a little more than useable, but I guess we can never have too much power. Andrew
Did you read about how they fit it in there? They had to lengthen the frontend of the truck....not an easy swap in my mind,unless someone else is doing it for ya.
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Yeah I know they did, I just thought it was wicked cool. A lot of work but the finished product is undoubtably one of the coolest zuks ever.