ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: jagular7 on December 01, 2003, 01:48:27 PM
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I've been reviewing and searching the archives all the way back to April concerning the front travel of the Vitara/XL-7/Trackick. I'll be playing this weekend at the Kansas Rocks ORV park this weekend with my XL-7 to try to take some measurements. With removal of the sway bar, I measured the static ride height of the coil to be 9", with full droop (extension of strut) to be 10.5" at the coil.
In my search, I've read that the front strut is mounted some ~2" too high in the tower. At full compression on the snubber, supposedly the strut still has ~2" more up travel.
Has anyone taken a measurement of the compressed strut and the extended strut, in or out of the truck?
In comparison, what are the same measurements for the Calmini strut from their lift?
Same for OME's strut (which is supposedly 1" taller than Calmini's)?
For Calmini's lift, I can only 'assume' they have designed their lift not just as a lift, but a system to work together. Many have spoken about the lift being taller than adverised because it's 'designed' to carry more weight like a winch, bumpers, and gear. Any comments?
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The Lift will give you a little extra without the added weight. I gained a little over 2" when I replaced my 2" Calmini Kit with the 3" Kit, and I'm loaded down with all of the safety accesories (cage, bumper, winch, sliders, etc).
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image003s.jpg)
stock vs 2"
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image006s.jpg)
stock vs 3"
Zig
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Ome is 3/4 longer than stock which equals about 1 1/4 at the wheel.
Mike
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The front strut provided with the Calmini lift is an OEM replacement unless they've changed it. Same travel as original equipment.
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It was the many discussions I've read from Zukipilot, YankeeTim, Mikerpm, and others's messages to where I got this information.
I've read even the coolest idea of replacing the strut with a bolt on upper control arm setup, then adding a shock. This looks like a very simple idea, but then the lower control arm is actually bolted on the inside of the frame and from underneath. It's nearly impossible to keep the caster/camber even during it's cycle with unequal-length parallel control arms.
What limits the actual travel of the front suspension is not the strut but the geometric operating angles of the cv's. The suspension could be designed to function with tremendous travel, but then the cv/axles would limit/bind and may even damage or need frequent replacement. The type or design of the front suspension doesn't relate to the operating range of the front drive axle.
I don't know what those operating angles are for the stock type Suzuki cv's, but I really doubt the short droop of the strut even comes close. I'm looking at adding a 3/4" spacer up front along with a 1-3/4" spacer in the rear. I prefer a nose down attitude in my long wheelbase vehicles so that when the nose is higher some foot or two in a climb, the rear will follow rather than drive underneath the vehicle. I would like to get the most from my stock strut (and even the strut included in the lift system) in travel and keep the cv's in operating control. By adding the 3/4" spacer, I'll be near/at the full extension of the strut.
By getting the measurements (and knowing where they were taken from), I can configure a strut spacer to configure the travel of the strut to work with the travel I prefer and the tire size (keep the tire off the body during compression).
Thanks for the info.
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I have been looking at the calmini lift and the rocky road lift. I am totaly lost as to which one is better. New control arm VRS longer strut's and matched coils. I have a 03 vitara. The 1 1/8 strut spacer seems like a cheap way to add some lift until the warrenty expires. I am tring to get a 215/70/16 tire under for right now and think that it would work with the spacer. Any ideas or comments would be great.
Thanks
Clay
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You can get more drop out of your front end by flipping the upper strut mount, taping out the studs and mounting it up-side-down. This will give a factory length strut about 2" of drop.
(http://izook.com/tech/projects/x90/images2/stmnts.jpg)
(http://izook.com/tech/projects/x90/images2/newstrts.jpg)
I dont have any struts off of the vehicle to measure the travel, but if you are going to build something custom, remove your cv boots and the grease, then raise and lower the control arm where you can watch the exact limits of the cv travel.
Hope this helps,
Zig
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I have been looking at the calmini lift and the rocky road lift. I am totaly lost as to which one is better. New control arm VRS longer strut's and matched coils. I have a 03 vitara. The 1 1/8 strut spacer seems like a cheap way to add some lift until the warrenty expires.  I am tring to get a 215/70/16 tire under for right now and think that  it would work with the spacer. Any ideas or comments would be great.
Thanks
Clay
I'd have to say that you are looking at the strut in the wrong way. It has very little to do with the 'support' of the weight of the vehicle. It's the coil's responsibility to do so. The strut's main function is to isolate the frequency of the suspension's travel (basically act as a shock) as well as provide a structural mechanism for a suspension location.
Lifting the Vitara will only come from the use of a different coil. Currently though, I am running 225/70-16's on my stock aluminum rims (original was 235/60-16 [27.1" tall]). So the 215/70-16 (21.8" tall) would fit with no problems other than slightly off the speedo. (I've also read where there are some differences between same vehicles with same tires, etc and speedo reads differently.)
What I'm looking at is the travel (the amount of distance the strut has the capability of going through from total collapsed to fully extended). This way, I can mount it to match the function of the suspension, meaning, collapsed point (weight on snubber mount), fully extended (being that of the strut), and the static ride height with full weight on coil.
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You can get more drop out of your front end by flipping the upper strut mount, taping out the studs and mounting it up-side-down. This will give a factory length strut about 2" of drop.
([url]http://izook.com/tech/projects/x90/images2/stmnts.jpg[/url])
([url]http://izook.com/tech/projects/x90/images2/newstrts.jpg[/url])
I dont have any struts off of the vehicle to measure the travel, but if you are going to build something custom, remove your cv boots and the grease, then raise and lower the control arm where you can watch the exact limits of the cv travel.
Hope this helps,
Zig
I noticed this (Trac/kick) is a bit different in comparison to the Vitara/XL-7 model. There is actually a cone some 3" high. The cone is mounted from underneath the frame mount. The strut goes through to the top of the cone. The strut brace then is bolted to the top of the cone. Only way I can see anything changing is to redo the cone and make the strut mount lower in it. I'll shoot some pics (yah, got a digital finally) of it tonight.
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The Kick/Trackers attach like this. with mount flipped.
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image017.jpg)
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The Kick/Trackers attach like this. with mount flipped.
([url]http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image017.jpg[/url])
Saw that on Izook's site. Have a few more pics of that site dealing with the 9" lift and the Calmini's 3" lift. In your pic, the 'cone' is only some 1.5" high and flipped. So flipping it gives you greater droop, but did anyone measure the collapsed length and adjust the bump stop (snubber) so that the strut won't get damaged?
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image033.jpg) Here is a picture of Calmini's spacer for their strut sitting on the bench. The stock mount is situated like stock.
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image035.jpg) Here is a picture of the strut installed with the spacer.
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/3inchtrackkick/images/image039.jpg) Here is the finished product installed and ready for wheel mount.
(http://www.izook.com/tech/tracker/lift/images/2_12.jpg) Here is a picture of the custom 9" lift on Izook's site. Here you can see the full droop and the angles of the cv's. The 9" lift comprised of drop brackets for the strut, coil (used the stock coil), and lower control arm. For the difference in height, a custom bracket was fabbed to 'raise' the lower strut mount. Stock strut was used.
(Hope the pics show up this time.)
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The top two pics are from when I did the 3" lift on my Kick ;) The bottom pic of Jim's custom made lift is alot like the Pro-Comp lift that use to be on the market (just MUCH taller) He did design all of the drop brackets to keep stock geometry, so that pic would be a good one to judge the maximum factory CV angles. The Calmini 3"kit (top two pics) use the shown drop bracket at the top of the strut to adjust for the ride height, and uses drop brackets to lower the diff to reduce cv angles.(can be seen in the same article you got the pics from)
Zig
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thanks for explaining it to me. Are new a arms needed or are the stock ones stong enough. The rocky road kit looks like it has more but is it really better. I am new to this so please be kind if I am asking dumb questions.
thanks
Clay
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Zukipilot: I looked at flipping the top strut mount. It is only one inch high and as the mounting part is offset you only drop the strut 3/4". I know thats a lot less than 2 " of droop. I measured strut travel at 6" total, in stock trim your only using just over 4" I calculated the two inch strut spacers gave 44% more travel.
Jagular 7: Like I said I took the spring off and compressed the suspension fully with a hydraulic jack so it was hard against the bump stop. Thats how I ascertained there was an extra two inches of travel left.
I have an extra 1.5" of travel left before the CV joint binds but I like to have a good margin. I think next I'll make some Calmini style drop brackets for the front axle, that'll take some of the angle off the CVs and then go to OME struts.
I'm not a fan of the spring spacers my lift kit came with +2" springs and rear shocks. Without much droop left on the front the suspension would top out just pulling away gently and front wheels would lift real easy in the corners. Thats why I started looking into the strut travel
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Zukipilot: I looked at flipping the top strut mount. It is only one inch high and as the mounting part is offset you only drop the strut 3/4". I know thats a lot less than 2 " of droop. I measured strut travel at 6" total, in stock trim your only using  just over 4" I calculated the two inch strut spacers gave 44% more travel.
The Vitara/XL-7 model (US model) has a much larger strut mount. I think it was you which noted the difference in travel for the stock strut. Thanks.
Jagular 7: Like I said I took the spring off and compressed the suspension fully with a hydraulic jack so it was hard against the bump stop. Thats how I ascertained there was an extra two inches of travel left.
Thanks for the measurement effort. I've been on KYB's and Monroe's web site looking for info pertaining to their strut replacements. Monroe's site had more info, but no info for the actual p/n application. Go figure.
I have an extra 1.5" of travel left before the CV joint binds but I like to have a good margin.
From this, I suspect you've only lowered the strut 1/2" (difference between the 2" and 1.5" of margin). Or did you determine a point without the spring to where the cv will bind at a droop condition? Which joint starts to bind inner or outer?
I think next I'll make some Calmini style drop brackets for the front axle, that'll take some of the angle off the CVs and then go to OME struts.
Is that what their brackets do? I'll have to go back to Zukipilot's install and read again. I've read also, Calmini will sell you individual parts of their kit. Have you tried this? By lowering the front axle housing, isn't the pinion snout have crossmember interference?
I'm not a fan of the spring spacers my lift kit came with +2" springs and rear shocks. Without much droop left on the front the suspension would top out just pulling away gently and front wheels would lift real easy in the corners. Thats why I started looking into the strut travel
I think of the coil spring spacers as a quick/easy way of slight lift. In time, the coils will fatigue and will need replacement. Currently, I have a stock suspended 2002 XL-7. I'm running with decent tread 225/70-16's. For the time being, a slight lift will work for me to get my long belly off the ground. Adding longer rear shocks shouldn't be as much of a problem as getting longer travel out of the strut. When I go larger in tire diameter with a lift, I know I'll be lowering the bump stop to protect some sheetmetal, but this will coincide with the travel of the strut and the size of the tire. I'd want to match the travel of the strut with the travel of the cv's, front suspension, and the tire.
I'm debating if there is another application of a strut which could apply to the Vitara/XL-7. These struts should not be just one application only. If it turns out this way, I guess a costum top mount will have to be used to get maximum travel up/down capability of the strut with cv's and tire size as main applications.
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"Is that what their brackets do? I'll have to go back to Zukipilot's install and read again. I've read also, Calmini will sell you individual parts of their kit. Have you tried this? By lowering the front axle housing, isn't the pinion snout have crossmember interference?"
The brackets rotate the differential forward also, so the stub axles get lower, but the pinion is kept off the cross member.
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OK I been here, I lowered the front strut mount 3"
and left the axle in the stock location, this will max
out the CV angle as well as it's movement in and
out of the CV Cup, note: the CV will pop out of the
cup before it binds on the cup.
At 3" the Ball Bearings will ride on the wire retainer
at the outside of the CV Cup, I ran my trucklet this
way for years before the CVs started clicking, when
I took them apart to see what the noise was this is
what I found.
I then did the Hagen A-arm Re-Location, now the CVs
fall out, more work, I had a spacer made for the Drivers
Side and extended the CV Cup with some DOM steel tubing
on the other side, CVs still were clicking, so I replaced the
offending side with a GEO front shaft from a motorhome
pusher ;D, clicking sound gone.
I'll post a pic if you guys are interested ???
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Zukipilot: I looked at flipping the top strut mount. It is only one inch high and as the mounting part is offset you only drop the strut 3/4". I know thats a lot less than 2 " of droop. I measured strut travel at 6" total, in stock trim your only using  just over 4" I calculated the two inch strut spacers gave 44% more travel.
After trying the flipped mount and the drop bracket for my 3" kit I decided to quit the 'trying to get a little more out of it'. I ended up trashing many half shafts (over extending past the wire ring). It had great travel in the front but it was to much for the CV travel. Now I have it set like Calmini designed it and no more over extension 8) The bad part is that the half shafts still can not handle low gears, 33's, and a heavy foot :'(
Zig
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Just to clarify, I dropped the strut 2", its had a lot of use with this mod over the last 18 months. I reckon I've another 1.5" I could go but without longer travel struts I wouldn't get any extra travel. I don't recall which part of the CV binds it was just a quick check will I was doing someother work. As Zukipilot has already tried this then I could be wrong about how much I've got left. I'm planning on swapping the front axle for a steel one soon so I'll check all that while its apart again. I didn't Calmini would sell parts individually would save some work if they did.
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After trying the flipped mount and the drop bracket for my 3" kit I decided to quit the 'trying to get a little more out of it'. I ended up trashing many half shafts (over extending past the wire ring). It had great travel in the front but it was to much for the CV travel. Now I have it set like Calmini designed it and no more over extension 8) The bad part is that the half shafts still can not handle low gears, 33's, and a heavy foot :'(
Zig
I think Zig is on to something here. There is a good point at which to stop trying to get more travel out of the IFS front end. That is at the point when the geometry gets so bad that the car won't drive well and parts break too easy.
One of the usual 'campfire conversations' we have is the idea of how much flex is enough / too much? It is my believe that a vehicle with front and rear lockers really needs minimal flex, even more so as the tire size increases. Sure a tire will be 'picked' and it might not look as pretty going through some stuff, but you're going to get through it. I guess I'm going the long way around the barn in trying to advacate balance in design. Balance of driveability, reliability, and functionality.
Anyway, that's my $.02
-Eric
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Another thing to consider,
A CV, much like the Birfield joint, becomes weaker and weaker the more angle it recieves, exposing the weakness and possible bell expansion and breakage.
It would be very wise to keep the CV's range of operability within factory spec to maintain strength. This is why Calmini uses stock length struts and axle drop brackets. The range remains the same as stock.
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Calmini use stock length struts but they also use strut lowering spacers (as shown in the pics above) to get more travel. Also because the diff is only lowered 1" the CVs run at the same angle as mine with no drop brackets and a 2" lift.
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Dropping the strut wont increase travel at all. All your doing is changing your range of travel. If your strut now goes an extra 2 inches down it wont also go 2 inches up.
Mike
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I also agree with Eric. How much is too much? Stability and Durability has to be #1 priority. If your sacrificing either for flex I promise you that you will regret it. Stability and durability will get you farther than flex every time.
Im sure some people will disagree with me on this statement but I also belive that if a rig is running more than a 60%rear / 40%front difference in flex your severly increasing your chances for a roll over. Too much stability is lost. Example... If you were driving down a steep grade and the front is flexed and the rear is not. If the rear shochs were topped out the you would also have the Unsprung weight (rear axle ECT) pulling down, if not your counting on the sprung weight (body) to stop this from happening. Also the rear tends to flex first because of spring weight. So if the rear gets all flexed the body will be so off camber that their isnt enough force to flex the front. I short shocked the rear of mine and got the same flex but now its more stable at the same RTI score.
As for longer struts.. I would love to have some but I would not add down travel but rather up travel. I have plenty of room in my cv angle for more up travel. I would like to replace the strut drop with a longer strut.
Someone mentioned that an upper controlarm would be an easy swap. I can assure you that it would not be easy to build this more durable than the strut we have now. I looked into this extensivly.
Mike
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I also agree with Eric.  How much is too much? Stability and Durability has to be #1 priority. If your sacrificing either for flex I promise you that you will regret it. Stability and durability will get you farther than flex every time.
I agree totally here also. My vehicle, XL-7, is the lowest and smallest (width wise) vehicle I've 'wheeled' with. I'm starting off with easy to moderate trails so that I can get use to it's 'offroadability' before I modify it for greater moderate to light heavy trails. What I was going for here is the operating range for the stock strut. By replacing the drive flanges with manual hubs, I found the coil at full extension to have 1.5" of down travel. I thought this to be really pittiful for a 4wd trail vehicle. Thus the title of this discussion 'Travel length of Strut, Stock vs. Calmini'.
Just like any time you change the suspension, you want the maximum travel of the axle to work with the new tire size. I just happen to have the tire off and want to measure the coil travel. Haven't measured the compression just yet, but that'll happen this weekend.
While at the ORV park previously, I ramped on a set of telephone poles. Before getting the front some 8" vertical, the rear tire came off the ground. So I know the rear has about same shock travel. Swapping out longer travel shocks may be easy.
....snip....
As for longer struts.. I would love to have some but I would not add down travel but rather up travel. I have plenty of room in my cv angle for more up travel. I would like to replace the strut drop with a longer strut.
I agree. The operating angles of the cv's is what should be considered here. There should be a graph developed which shows the life expectancy of a cv operating at an angle for a period of time. If the cv operated totally in alignment, then the life expectancy would be very high. If the cv had to operate at 75*, then life expectancy would be 1/100 of that top level. (Just throwing numbers out, no reference intended.)
I like the fact that Calmini designed the relocation of the axle housing and relocation of the spindle wrt the ball joint. (Remember my comments about how the spindle centerline is not in alignment with the axle housing centerline in another discussion?)
Someone mentioned that an upper control arm would be an easy swap. I can assure you that it would not be easy to build this more durable than the strut we have now. I looked into this extensivly.
Mike
I was the one who mentioned it here as in the archives dating back to April 03, I found your info on this. However, this would have been real cool. Maybe with Skyjacker making all those subframe long arm kits, they could look into doing same thing with a subframe and dual a-arms. Thing is, there probably is not much benefit since, once again, the cv's have to be considered in the design. They will have a droop and compression range which would coincide with the travel range of the strut. KISS!!!!
Currently I want to add some small coil spacers to give a little lift in the belly of the loonngg XL-7 till I get some tax money. By adding to the front, I'll have to add a spacer to the strut to compensate. Knowing the range would help design the strut spacer. Changing out the rear shock should be a much simpler process.
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Dropping the strut wont increase travel at all. All your doing is changing your range of travel. If your strut now goes an extra 2 inches down it wont also go 2 inches up. ÂÂ
Mike
No not true. The strut didn't go up all the way before, the bump stop prevented the full range of movement. Now it goes up as far as the bump stop as before but can come down an extra 2"
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No not true. The strut didn't go up all the way before, the bump stop prevented the full range of movement. Now it goes up as far as the bump stop as before but can come down an extra 2"
I stand corrected. :-[ I have never checked a stock rig. Every lifted rig Ive seen has not hit the bumpstops.
Mike