ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Yankee Tim on November 20, 2003, 12:00:37 AM
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Anyone thunk of this?
The GV's front brakes are bigger than those on 4dr Kicks, and so are the rear drums. Appears to be bolt on.
Food for thought.
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Yeah, but on the GV you can't roll another wheels than oem :( Because the caliper are too big for other wheels.
Fredo
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Anyone thunk of this?
The GV's front brakes are bigger than those on 4dr Kicks, and so are the rear drums.  Appears to be bolt on.
Food for thought.
Yeah, won't work the axle flange is slightly different and thus the drum and backing plate are off. Maybe with a smidge of machining. But didn't you have trouble getting aftermarket wheels for the GV because of funky wheel interference? FWIW: I use the larger 4dr Sidekick rear (completely bolt on) and regular 2 dr front. Result, I can slide 33" MT/Rs on dry pavement.
-Eric
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Yeah, won't work the axle flange is slightly different and thus the drum and backing plate are off. Maybe with a smidge of machining. But didn't you have trouble getting aftermarket wheels for the GV because of funky wheel interference? FWIW:
-Eric
I didn't take out the calipers to measure the bolt  holes on the backing plate.  But yer prolly right.  The rear would also need flanged shafts.
On the front, yeah, you would need a spacer to run other tham OEMs.  I just didn't want to buy spacer AND rims.  But if I already had the rims...  Since the 4dr rears are and upgrade for a 2-dr rear, I thought the GV front might add more powere there too.  Spacers wold make it happen, and give you the wider track.
Just brain fartin' ::)
I use the larger 4dr Sidekick rear (completely bolt on) and regular 2 dr front. Result, I can slide 33" MT/Rs on dry pavement.
Yeah. But if more is good, morer is gooder!
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Aww heck why not go to twin front calipers,
morer is gooder ;)
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Why mess around with mediocre slider style factory calipers when you could use some nice 4 piston Wilwoods or AP Racing calipers? Now that would be a sweet conversion.
Wilwoods are pretty reasonable at about 100-150 per caliper depending which model. The only downside is that there are no piston dust seals on the Wilwoods. Just the actual seal between the caliper body and the piston itself. I'm not sure it's a big problem, lots of dirt track racers use them and only rebuild about once a year, just clean em off good if you go wheeling.
AP racing calipers are really nice too and have dust seals but they cost a lot more than the Wilwoods do.
Pretty much all we'd need is some adapters machined for the the caliper mounting to take the rotor diameter and bolt spacing into account. Would be nice to use some Wilwood rotors too but that would require custom rotor hats and cost more. It would work really well though and you'd have some serious braking power for probably 600 bucks or so if you included the custom hats and Wilwood rotors, or about $300 just for custom calipers and adapters.
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OK break the mold, Volvo uses some of the best brake
stuff around, I had 4 piston calipers on an old '75 164
and I bet they are mo cheaper out of the pick your part
:)
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That's not a bad way to go either. Junkyard parts can be pretty good if you know what to look for.
A couple of benefits to the Wilwoods is they're aluminum and lightweight and the pad compund choices are pretty nice with a good coefficient of friction even on the colder temp compounds. There's also racing pads available although why you'd want or need em on a street driven 4x4 is beyond me. Gotta get the racing ones nice and warm before they start to work very well. On the upside they'd probably last a really long time. Granted, this does you absolutely no good if you can't stop your vehicle when you want/need to.
Anyway, some other good Junkyard calipers here:
Toyota 4x4's from 79-83 use a 4 piston sumitomo caliper too. It's a popular swap on Datsun 240/260/280z's as it's literally a direct bolt on. (They use the 2 piston version of the same caliper from the factory). As a result they are somewhat hard to find. I've got a pair in the garage for my Z so I could see if the bolts line up and if the offset is even remotely close to see if that might be a relatively easy swap. Doubt it'll be as easy as it is on the Z even if it is feasable of course.
Even if you buy some remanufactured ones they're only about 70 bucks and if you buy them at chain stores that employ people who don't actually know anything about cars (autozone, checker/shucks/kragen etc) They'll take pretty much anything back as a core. Yes that's a dirty trick to play, shame on me. But it did provide an inexpensive way for me to upgrade to a gear reduction starter on my Datsun. ;D
Later V6 4x4 Toyotas use a bigger version of the 4 piston caliper that will accomodate vented rotors. It's 4 runners and the regular pickup up through the early 90's for that one.
Put some Porterfield R4S pads in there and you're set. (granted the R4S pads if they were available for our stock 2 or 4 door calipers would probably be a big improvement by themselves)
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I was looking for a set of Carbon Metalics for my Zuke,
no luck, so I'd be interested in any replacement pad
with a better stopping grip, tho pads that wear out in
10,000 miles are too much of a pain.
So what are these Porterfield R4S pads you speak of.
A custom reline could be made perhaps ???
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Porterfield is the company, R4S is the compound (S being for street use) it's pretty popular with the performance car folks. I think they might do custom relines if you're willing to send them in your old backing plates. No idea on the cost for that but most of their sets are in the 50-100 dollar range per axle.
I believe the R4S is a carbon/kevlar type pad.
Their website is www.porterfield-brakes.com.
No Zuk/Tracker listing though.
They also sell Hawk brake pads which you would probably want the "blue" compound on.
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What is needed to swap 4door vented rotors and calipers to a 2door? How about the rears? ???
I could use some extra stopping power with the extra weight up front.
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What is needed to swap 4door vented rotors and calipers to a 2door? How about the rears? ???
I could use some extra stopping power with the extra weight up front.
Welcome 95XL7,
Glad you joined. I'm doing the 2.7 swap and would like to pick your brain about that... Anyway, another thread perhaps...
What I did for the rear brakes was use a 97-98 5-bolt flanged axle and then used the larger backing plate and drums off of the 4-door model. It was all there on a wrecked 4-door donor. Nothing needed to be modified.
I think that there is a possibility of using a later in the year 96 4-door that has the 4 bolt to 5 on 5.5 adapter drums in the same larger size but I'm only 50% sure on this. Some junk yardin' is in order... :) That way you could use your current axles.
The brakes are quite a bit larger and really help slow the rig down.
Good luck, Eric
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???But what about putting the front vented style rotors on the 2door? Could it just be different rotors,calipers and caliper brackets? I really want to change the front first,those solid rotors seem to get hot and warp faster.
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The 4 Door brakes are vented, and yes they work on a
2 door, bigger calipers work to slow much better, they
would also work with the solid rotors, but why use solid
when vented are out there.
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Vented is always better, more mass to absorb the heat energy and more surface area to dissipate it afterwards.
Get a set cross drilled or slotted and some better compound pads so we all need to start calling Porterfield and/or Hawk Brakes and start asking for them to generate demand.
I found a place that sells a -3 sized stainless brake line crimping machine (does up to -6 lines too with different dies so something like Braided stainless A/C or power steering lines would be doable too) I need to measure it up but if I could get enough people willing to buy a set of braided stainless lines for Tracks/Kicks I seriously might consider buying it (It's not cheap unfortunately).
I'm guessing with the fittings and good quality teflon lines a set would probably be in the $150-$180 range since we have a lot of flex lines on the Trackers and Kicks. If I could get 15 or 20 confirmed people that would buy a set of stainless lines in that price range I'll very seriously consider buying the crimper. Heck if I can get enough initial interest in stainless sets to basically pay for the crimper I'd be willing to sell the kits at cost till the crimper's paid off.
Of course since I'm going to be making these in my garage they will not be DOT legal and I'll probably have a big ugly disclaimer I'll make you sign in order to buy them. (Not so much worried about you guys as I am about insurance companies and their seemingly endless teams of attorneys if you were to get in a wreck.) Damn the litigious nature of our modern society I say!
Anyone interested? I could do Samurai sets too, haven't looked into the availability of those aftermarket but if I could get some measurements off of and fittings are available I'm certainly up for doing a set of those too.
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The 4 Door brakes are vented, and yes they work on a
2 door, bigger calipers work to slow much better, they
would also work with the solid rotors, but why use solid
when vented are out there.
I know their better,what i'm trying to say is What parts are needed off the 4 door to make them work on the 2 door?
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Ahh ... I though Ohh nevermind :-[
Just get it all, backing plates are optional,
you need
1: The brackets that bolt to the knuckle
2: The Calipers
3: The Rotors
4: The pads if they are good
Save all the hardware just in case, and a spare brake
line or two would not be a bad thing, I tweeked my
backing plates, just took a little bend, for a total bolt
on change, no tweeking, get the plates too, I swapped
the brakes in about 1 hour, including bleeding the whole
system. best $40 I spent on the zuke in a long time.
:)
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Z3bra, I had one line made for the drivers side,
nobody wanted to do it if you said it was for street
use. Finally a guy at an aviation shop did it, cost
me $35, about half of the cost of Factory Rubber
ones.
Track/Kicks have 3 lines to replace.
I had this one made 3" longer, too much as it
got rubbed and I blew it out last year, on a hill
out at TDS, good thing there was a place to land
and not a cliff, I'd be zukie pancake filling :(
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Actually after looking into it a bit more, the best fittings if you're not concerned about them being DOT legal are the Earl's Speed Seal fittings coupled with Earl's Speed-Flex teflon lines.
Nothing required in the way of a hydraulic crimper for those. Just a vice and some wrenches and a 25 dollar tool to separate the braid from the teflon that Earls sells. Buy the stuff bulk and make em yourself folks. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get em pressure tested first too though. The nice thing with the fittings I mentioned is that they're reusable so a field repair is possible and relatively easy if you bring some spare -3 line and the other tools. (Doable without a vice but easier with one).
Sounds like you forgot the paramount rule of braided stainless lines Wildgoody. That's to inspect them often for chafing/fraying/rubbing. When you install them make sure they're routed properly and securly mounted with an adel type clamp to keep em out of harm's way. There's a couple other ways to help slow down problems with them, either sleeve them with pvc when you're building them or get some of the spiral wrap wire looming stuff and wrap em with that. It's not as pretty as clear pvc, but it does the trick. There's plenty of military helicpters flying around that wrap lines just like that for stuff like flight control systems. On a helicopter it's pretty much a guaranteed crash if you lose hydraulic power to the actuators. (except on the little ones that don't use hydraulic flight controls like the OH-58 and the OH-6 of course)
I was thinking there's more than just 3 flex lines though, there's 2 short ones down by the frame rail behind the passenger side on mine by a valve body. as well as the 2 main ones up front and the rear one. Probably could live without replacing those but if you're trying to get rid of all the spongy rubber crap those two would need to go as well.
Anyway the Earl's hose is like 50 bucks for a 20' section from Summit Racing the straight steel fittings are about 6 bucks each or about 16 bucks each if you go for actual stainless fittings. Some of the fancier shaped fittings are more than 6 bucks but probably top out at around 16 as well. Figure about 150 total for the fittings worst case if they were all 16 bucks and you did all 5 pieces, 50 for the hose, and 25 for the flaring tool. Not the cheapest but unlike going with a premade set with the swaged on fittings, once you buy these fittings you'll be able to reuse them again and again. Plus if you got the 20' piece of hose that's probably enough for 4-5 sets. Not really so bad compared to a premade set when you look at it that way even though it is a bit more up front. The downside is that because the fittings aren't permanently crimped on they don't meet DOT requirements. It's pretty stupid considering the amount of critical lines on aircraft that don't use swaged on fittings and it's not an issue there. The real stupidity of the DOT requirements is that the swaged on fittings are typically the point of failure as the point where the swaged on ferrule ends and the braiding is exposed is where breaks are most likely to happen.
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DOT they try ....... too hard, like the H3 head lights
available in Europe long before they were legal here,
I got a set for my VW Bug, way back when, you can't
tell from the outside, but they were not DOT approved.
6V halogen bulbs, ever hear of such a thing ?? That's
why I bought them, bright lights.
Hey Z you work on Aircraft don't you ???
Aviation is my second Love, If I were a rich man de di de di....
O that's a Musical, I've wanted to build an Ultralight Helicopter
for years now, it would allow me to get to very remote places and
go prospecting up in the remote mountains where it could take you
a day to get there. Somday ::)
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I used braided on mine, I've used the Earls type fittings a lot on motorcycles before. They can be a bit like having a long file hanging about, they're quite abrasive and will wear through rubber and paint quite easily. If you put a sleeve of heatshrink sleeving over them it stops all that and you can get it in lots of colours (or colors if you're American ;D) too.
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Aren't the vented discs wider if so what about issues with minimum disc thicknesses with the solid rotors. Vented sounds better but its just something else to fill with mud and if it doesn't all come out before it sets what about wheel balance?
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You got a point with the mud, guess you need to
follow up a mud run with a good deep water crossing
to wash it all out.
I don't think there will be a balance issue, even packed
up with mud.
Yes the vented disks are wider, also the pads are thinner
so you may lose some miles or Km between changes, I
would hope a cooler disk would offset some wear on the pads
but I'm not sure of this. Minimum disk thickness is still an
issue, the spec for vented disks is just thicker than with solid.
James, great ideas for the braided line protection, I used the
split wire loom plastic, but of coarse the line rubbed right where
the seam was, and being covered I never really inspected them
as I thought they were fine being covered up.
I really like the clear tubeing over the SS braid, then I guess you
could put some color co-ordinated heat shrink at the ends to keep
water and dirt/mud out. Now I got to make some ;D
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Wildgoody, I used to work on CH-47 Chinook helicopters when I was in the army, but I got out in 95.
Now I'm just a computer geek, but that's ok it pays better and the working conditions are a lot better anyway.
I thought about going to get my A&P cert after getting out but there's too many old-timers in the industry and with all the defense cutbacks etc it just didn't look real good for job growth anytime soon.
It did make me a bit nitpicky about fasteners etc. and it's amazing the difference in quality on aircraft parts vs the crap they put on cars.
If you download the PDF of the earl's catalog (part 3 of 3 has all the brake related fittings and lines in it). They do list the -3 size lines for brakes that come pre covered in plastic over the braid.
Or like Rhinoman suggested a bit of heat shrink or the like works great too. Or back to my suggestion the spiral wrap wireloom does the trick pretty well and it's easy to put on after the fact whereas the heat shrink has to be put on when you assemble the line generally unless you have the really small straight type fittings in which case you might be able to slip it over them with a liberal application of WD-40 or something.
Gotta agree with ya though, the DOT however well intentioned tries way too hard, gonna probably put some Euro spec 7" round Hella H4 housings on my 240z and then do a true HID conversion that fits in the H4 sockets. (Not the fruity bluish ones they sell at autozone for 30 bucks, but the real deal Osram type that have the ballast that steps the voltage up to like 35,000 or so.) Downside is they're about $450 plus. The cool thing with the true HID lights is that they have loads of light output but actually are easy on the wiring. Once they get past initially firing up, they use about 1/3 of the actual power that a normal set of halogens do. Just food for thought.
Somewhat of a tangent on the headlight discussion, but has anyone ever considered making an adapter plate for the trackicks to just use 7" rounds in there? It's kinda bad in that it makes it looks like you're trying to be a Heep, but frankly 7" rounds are a whole lot cheaper to replace than the factory type when the glass inevitably takes a rock and breaks. I was looking at mine and basically other than putting a small notch at the bottom of the stock lights in the plastic grill they should fit pretty easily. One big benefit of this switch is that you could do a true HID conversion or at the very least upgrade the bulbs to higher wattage ones. (Probably would recommend rewiring in that case and using relays so you don't melt the stock harness). Top that with the fact that the Euro Spec H4 housings have a much better beam pattern than US DOT spec ones anyway. Like Wildgoody said, they mean well but they try a little too hard on some things.
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I'm a little lost on the headlight bulb discussion, yeah mine are H4. Curious about the headlight glass though, mine are polycarbonate which is pretty tough, its also great for wading. I drove it on the Sweden Off Road Tour, over there daytime headlights are compulsory, we drove through some deep water, I was OK, most of the Landrovers came out with busted lights - hot glass and water don't mix.
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DOH....... Did I write H3 I meant H4, is there an H3 ???
anyhow you knew what I was saying
:-[
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Not sure but based on the way the hole from a rock hitting it looks on mine, I think the headlight lenses are glass on the US spec ones. They haven't started turning the tell-tale yellow that plastic ones do either and that's after 13 years in the Arizona sun. Also, ours don't use H4 bulbs. (6004's maybe? I forget). Wish they used H4's but the DOT tends to err very much on the side of caution with damn near everything.
The 7" Hella E-code lenses are leaded glass though as I understand it.
I believe there's an H3 bulb spec but I have no clue as to what it is.
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Our trucklets use a 9004 bulb, but if I could get a Euro
spec headlamp assembly I would use them.
James, you feel like getting into the Grey Market
parts business ??? ;)