ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: SnoFalls on January 07, 2005, 09:39:24 AM
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Someone please quote me a price for a 2" (or so) rear ball joint drop bracket ....
aka one of these
(http://www.rrorc.com/gallery/data/523/8rear_balljoint_spacer_1-med.jpg)
(http://www.rrorc.com/gallery/data/523/8rear_balljoint_spacer-med.jpg)
I could get a bud to one-off something like this, but someone who's done one before could get some easy buks from me instead. I'm looking for in my hands by 01/28 ...
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I build a 3" if you want one
$60 + shipping ~ $10
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/rear-spacer.jpg)
It also rotates the rear axle for better driveshaft angle
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I'll pass then ... I'll get one fabbed up at somepoint (probably 2") ...
Why the adjustment to the pinion angle? I'll have something to look at when I get back I guess, but I didn't think the drop would have much effect on driveline angles.
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It improves the angle of the driveshaft,
and pushes the slip yoke back into the
trans to reduce wear and vibration
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It improves the angle of the driveshaft,
and pushes the slip yoke back into the
trans to reduce wear and vibration
What he said. Noticable different.
You got a pic of the one I had made for me. I paid 75 for mine, shipped, BUT I'm pretty sure he can make em for less. I got overchanrged a bit for it, cause we had something more elaborate in mind. But it's cool, good buddy of mine!
I will call him today, and see what kinda prices he can fab one up for. Also, it is a 2" spacer.
What would you see as a fair price? Thick steel that is required for this application is not cheap, plus the time needed to fab it up. This thing needs to be beefy and bulletproof. $75 is cheap for a custom fabbed piece of anything, let alone something that needs to be strong enough and built correctly that holds the entire rear suspension in place. That spacer goes, you're entire rear suspension is trashed!
I'll start a new post this evening with prices! 8)
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I build a 3" if you want one
$60 + shipping ~ $10
It also rotates the rear axle for better driveshaft angle
Good deal.
Its just about exactly like the one we fabbed up.
Is this on your truck Darin?
~Nate
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Ya, the one in the pic is the one
I have tested for the last 5 years
so far so good.
I made one from 1/4 plate for a friend
of mine, I told him 3/8 plate but he brought
me the wrong stuff, well it broke thru the
bolt holes next to the riser, and he wasn't
wheeling just in a parking lot.
The good thing is if it breaks, you can
unbolt it and go back to the origional
balljoint on the diff, not the best situation
but it will get you off the trail and back home
Wild
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If you do rotate it make sure the drive shaft angles are withing 7 degrees of each other.
If not you will get a vibration.
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??? I don't know, I've heard that
but I have yet to have any viberation
problems, I have seen the post with
the driveshaft pic, but it's showing
out of phase u-joints and the angles
Wild
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Mine caused a vibration on decel at higher speeds. It took out two transmitions (2nd gear) before I figured out what was wrong.
Set it up like this:
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAnA4gYs9hKs0AHfo8sWw5Fl9kNYIqqcSjPrrb3RZqOqjhx3xvRlAlAoenFPr75NOaupn0uJ0GCSO!6KsXx8yzwRmvrCteHvOHjrpEXI7iEqIVAvZXcgQ/Geometry.jpg?dc=4675467227345361421)
Haven't had a problem sence.
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What he said. Noticable different.
You got a pic of the one I had made for me. I paid 75 for mine, shipped, BUT I'm pretty sure he can make em for less. I got overchanrged a bit for it, cause we had something more elaborate in mind. But it's cool, good buddy of mine!
I will call him today, and see what kinda prices he can fab one up for. Also, it is a 2" spacer.
What would you see as a fair price? Thick steel that is required for this application is not cheap, plus the time needed to fab it up. This thing needs to be beefy and bulletproof. $75 is cheap for a custom fabbed piece of anything, let alone something that needs to be strong enough and built correctly that holds the entire rear suspension in place. That spacer goes, you're entire rear suspension is trashed!
I'll start a new post this evening with prices!  8)
Don't get me wrong ... I don't think $75 is bad price for a one off. I was just wondering/hoping someone would make a dozen or so which could drop the price down. The first fabrication can be used as a template to just mass produce the next dozen sort of thing.
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Don't get me wrong ... I don't think $75 is bad price for a one off. I was just wondering/hoping someone would make a dozen or so which could drop the price down. The first fabrication can be used as a template to just mass produce the next dozen sort of thing.
Mass production is hard, since this one is all machined. All the parts are machined to get an exact fit, then he sets them in a jig to get an exact fit, everything lined up perfect, etc. The machine work is $40/hr, plus the material, etc, etc, etc.
I can see if he can make up a few and see if a discount can be worked. I'll talk to him this week, and I'll see what he can work out.
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We can do them how many do you want made up and who is interested in them. what material thickness. and height do you want them in.. Our shop rate is $60.hr for machine work but if there is an interest in a quantity we can play with pricing.
-Scott
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any one got dimentions on a 2 or 3 inch one I could use? I'd like to build one.. but I need details :-/
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any one got dimentions on a 2 or 3 inch one I could use? I'd like to build one.. but I need details :-/
Lemme see what I can dig up. Do a search, I actually found the specs for the one I had built on this site.
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Mass production is hard, since this one is all machined. All the parts are machined to get an exact fit, then he sets them in a jig to get an exact fit, everything lined up perfect, etc. The machine work is $40/hr, plus the material, etc, etc, etc.
I can see if he can make up a few and see if a discount can be worked. I'll talk to him this week, and I'll see what he can work out.
I guess I didn't see the "machining" ... thought it was; cut some plates, drill some holes (accurately), weld up some spacer plates. I do understand the need for thick material ...
So, the work involved is making the plate (2 for each unit), and then welding in the necessary spacer plates (4 per unit). Spacers could be 2" or 3" ...
Group buy? ... put me down for one (2"). Hopefully others will chime in ...
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I guess I didn't see the "machining" ... thought it was; cut some plates, drill some holes (accurately), weld up some spacer plates. I do understand the need for thick material ...
So, the work involved is making the plate (2 for each unit), and then welding in the necessary spacer plates (4 per unit). Spacers could be 2" or 3" ...
Group buy? ... put me down for one (2"). Hopefully others will chime in ...
Well, I will talk to my dude, and see what he can work up for a group buy. I'll post up here in a few days with what I find.
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Count me in for one (1) 2". Thanks! 8)
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On a mass production scale, I
can have the holes punched,
fast and accurate, Make this
a group buy and I can see what
a bunch would cost to fab up.
There is a template that has
been posted here, but I don't
remember who posted it....
Wild
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"O" Heck.
I'll d take one ;D
They looked pretty good.
I may use it
or not.
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On a mass production scale, I
can have the holes punched,
fast and accurate,  Make this
a group buy and I can see what
a bunch would cost to fab up.
There is a template  that has
been posted here, but I don't
remember who posted it....
Wild
If you can do this, go for it! I talked to my buddy and he is really backed up w/ work til at least April!! :o
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http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=pt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cabrito.suzukioffroad.com.br%2fUpper%2520wishbone.htm
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I want one please - I've got a guy who said he do the 2" one as per the Brazilian guys spacer, but no progress to date. I would like the simple solid block drilled at 4 corners & a centre hole as per the previous post, as with only a 2" lift is it really necessary to build in any rotation to the diff??
On the subject of diffs, anyone got an axle mounted skid plate ( rather than a diff cage) to protect it?
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I would take one but I do NOT want the pinion offset . If the pinion is turned upward you MUST use a constant velocity joint in the driveshaft . Also pinion angle IS directly related to traction . ( I drag race also ) You would not believe the difference pinion angle makes in traction .
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all this talk of pinion angle......I had a vib after I lifetd about 2", and after I did the spacer w/ the offest, no vib.
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There is a template  that has
been posted here, but I don't
remember who posted it....
Wild
i think Whitfeild posted it.
(http://photos.zuwharrie.com/users/whitfimb/Reardifflift.jpg)
stu
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I would take one but I do NOT want the pinion offset . If  the pinion is turned upward you MUST use a constant velocity joint in the driveshaft . Also pinion angle IS directly related to traction . ( I drag race also ) You would not believe the difference pinion angle makes in traction .
Getting under today to do my third swap, I inspected the pinion and tranny angles ... I agree that a pinion angle change is not needed (or desired). The trans and stock pinion angles appear equal which is the deired setup. They need to be parallel, and I see no no reason why dropping the pivot shoud change that.
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is this really needed? i have a 2.5" body & a 3" sus lift and have never noticed anything wrong. have i just gotten lucky? convince me that i need one and i will be in. ;)
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is this really needed? i have a 2.5" body & a 3" sus lift and have never noticed anything wrong. have i just gotten lucky? convince me that i need one and i will be in. ;)
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is this really needed? i have a 2.5" body & a 3" sus lift and have never noticed anything wrong. have i just gotten lucky? convince me that i need one and i will be in. ;)
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The 2 reasons for the drop bracket is
1. the proportioning valve in the rear
is not giving enough pressure to the
rear brakes (89 SideKick I don't know
about all the years)
2. The balljoint is at it's limit, and if you
know balljoints, they don't take much
pressure and they pop apart
I also rotated the rear axle to push the
Slip Yoke farther into the trans to help
with wear, if it's out a long way it will
start wearing the bushing in the rear.
As far as the driveshaft angles, what I
know is that this setup points the input
on the diff straight towards the trans thru
the entire travel range, this is my "ideal"
setup, and what I wanted
I would recommend rotating for all lifts,
the rotating is not for just driving, or drags,
but for the full extension of the suspension
system.
Wild
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is this really needed?  i have a 2.5" body & a 3" sus lift and have never noticed anything wrong.  have i just gotten lucky?  convince me that i need one and i will be in. ;)
needed? well as wild said, with lift things are geting put to limits. I noticed a "need" from some simple articulation tests (the center link was contributing to lack of rear travel).
Sometimes every little bit helps. Other limits do/will come into play for me, but this is just one of them :)
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My problem with rotating the pinion is that the pinion and output shaft are no longer parallel (perhaps an equal change in the output shaft would be the best). Without those angles being "parallel, and yet slightly offset", vibration *will* occur (it might be slight or unpreceivable, but the physics of a double ujoint driveshaft implly it).
Dropping the diff will pull the shaft a small bit further out from  the tcase, but with a 3 link, that's not as big a deal as it might be with leafs.
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http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=pt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cabrito.suzukioffroad.com.br%2fUpper%2520wishbone.htm
i do this ;D
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/302365/6
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OK, here is the skinny scoop on the group
buy rear ball joint spacer, I got a price for
punched holes in the plates, and it's based
on a buy of 12 spacers
There is no real difference in price between
a 2" and a 3" drop spacer, so for the group
buy the price will be the same, the difference
is actually $.30 in steel
All spacers are built with a rear axle rotation
built into it, I have been running this way for
about 150,000 miles, I don't think there is a
problem that will manifest it's self from unequal
output and input angles of the driveshaft.
Spacer Price : $42
Shipping to be figured as per Zip Code
There needs to be at least 12 orders to
start the group buy, more is OK
Now Taking orders
Wild
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Put me down for one for sure ...
(wonder if trail tough or another vendor would get a few for stock?)
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i want one too!
i dont think that pic of the one from zuwharrie.com will work, the blolt holes are not off set....
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everyone thinking of turning their pinion up :o please click on this link and read carefully. http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/driveline/
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So you put a DC in the end when
you do a SYE and problem solved
The point you bring up could be valid,
but my expieriance with over 100,000
miles says this is not a major problem,
and I have no driveline problems or
viberations, the spacer points the diff
flange at the T-case all the time, no
matter where the axle is in it's articulation
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There are many of us on the BBS that have this MOD with no problems out of it (thanks to Mr Hagen :P) I have also put alot of miles on mine and all still seems fine. I'm hoping to put it to the Cross country to Moab test in a couple of months.
Zig
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My 2 cents.
I had a bad vibration on decell and damaged 2 transmissions before I realized the problem.
I over rotated the axil so that the angles were the same and it made a big difference.
Note: I also did a frame lift and my transmission is 3" above everyone elses with a Calmini 3" suspention lift. So thats rughly 6 + inchs above stock.
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I guess some Suzuki's do not have to abide by the law of physics . ??? this dosent even mention the traction LOSS that comes with pointing the pinion up . run a pinion angle serch on the web and look at the drag cars . pinion pointed way down . this makes a huge traction difference . this is just my own expierience , i am not trying to make any arguments or foes . I just think an offset spacer is a bad idea that seems like a good one until further reserched . I have had several lifted vehicles over the past 15 years and have alot of expierence in this matter . Thankx guys
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i would still love to have a turbo on my sidetracker !
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I would take one but I do NOT want the pinion offset . If the pinion is turned upward you MUST use a constant velocity joint in the driveshaft . Also pinion angle IS directly related to traction . ( I drag race also ) You would not believe the difference pinion angle makes in traction .
More true with leafs then with coils and control arms..
~Nate
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That was my thought too Nate.
So when I do my SYE I'll stick a
Toyota DC joint in there, I'll let
you know if it helps or not, I did
notice that the vibration I do get
is when the Slip Yoke is hanging
out of the Trans too far, which is
the reason for the rotated diff :)
I know you aren't trying to make
any foes or arguments here, and
you are in reality expressing your
concern that this could lead to other
problems, and to relook at this mod
part. I would agree it would be best
to keep the driveline at the optimum
equal input/output angles, this would
work much better if we all had Slip Shafts
instead of Slip Yokes, but that is not the
case, and the problems of overcoming
the slip yoke and creating lift have to be
weighed and compromises have to be made,
this being one of them, and being better
than a worn tailshaft bushing, or worst yet
a popped out Slip Yoke on the trail from being
a little over flexy
Perfect it ain't, works well it does
Wild
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everyone thinking of turning their pinion up please click on this link and read carefully. http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/driveline/
I believe the point of the spacer is to turn the pinion down with the spacer, not up. With the coil spacers it points the pinion up too much, and the ball joint spacer will point the front of the axle (pinion) down or almost level, similar to the t-case. The other way is to cut off the coil mounts and turn the axle to the proper angle and then re attach. That is my understanding.
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No, actually the 3" rise is to prevent the
balljoint from being torn apart at full droop,
the rotation turns the axle upward so it
points at the T-case output, if it were just
a 3" riser, the angles would remain the
same thru the axle articulation. with the
rotation the rear U-joint gets almost no
angle thru the articulation range, only
the T-case end gets to see any angle
Wild
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the stock TJ rear driveshaft is only 12inches from ujoint to ujoint . i have one of these running 40 in swampers that had to have a double cardian shaft made and point the pinion straight toward transfer . this works well with the double joint . i still feel the traction suffers from this but has no vibrations .my tj only dreams of going places my zuke goes , but the gals really like jeeps .
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ok, after looking again... would someone please tell me why the pic on altavista and cardomain have all 4 bolt holes aligned top to bottom and the fabed steel one on here shows them offset? just wondering, thanks.
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The other one does not rotate the diff upwards
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So if I am reading the input on this thread correctly.........
The top and bottom "plate" should not be parallel, but rather have and inherient "angle"!
So what is the degree of angle that is optimum, and should it be an acute angle towards the front of the vehicle or obtuse?
Or is ther an "offset" needed to relocate the balljoint mounting point?
If so what is that "offset" measurement?
OR............would the "best" of all worlds be non parallel
mounting surfaces and offset attachment points?
thanks in advance for answers!
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Hi Kerry :)
I'm not sure what you are asking as far
as acute or obtuse, it's been too long and
I can't remember the difference between
them. But the answer is a two fold one,
according to the optimum U-joint operating
theory both input and output should be at
the same number of degrees, and yokes
kept parallel.
In my balljoint drop mod piece the offset
is about 2", the top plate is 2" forward and
3" higher than the bottom mount hole location
(see pic above) this rotats the diff upwards just
enough to point the input right at the output on
the Trans/T-case, and further it keeps pointing
towards the output thru the entire articulation
range, as well as moving the rear axle backwards
about 1" for better clearance of big tires, this is
one thing I forgot to mention in the previous posts,
without this rotation I don't think I could fit 33"
Swampers with no, that's right no rubbing in the
rear, not at full stuff, not off camber nothing, the
rear tire will not touch the body at any time.
Wild
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I'm not sure what you are asking as far
as acute or obtuse, it's been too long and
I can't remember the difference between
them.
Acute would be an angle that ccloses in this case towards the front of the vehicle.
An obtruse would close towards the rear.
In other words the plates (top and bottom would lets say for sake of aurguement 1 1/2" apart top plate to bottom plate towards the front of the vehicle, i.e. acute.
Whereas the plates would say be 1'1/2' apart at the rear i.e. obtuse.
What I'm getting at is would there be any advantage in having the top and bottom surfaces non-parallel. Or all that need be is a "block" that is inserted to raise the balljoint?
The point being is there anything geometry wise that would be an improvement to the arch that the wishboone/axle travels when the rear axle/suspension travels/moves/articulates/cycles or what ever term you would use to describe it?
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:) Thanks for the geometry refresher
As far as non-parallel, I don't think there would
be any advantage for doing so, the balljoint seems
to be happy enough with the angles it's running at.
You could remove a sliver (pie piece) to get the balljoint
to be level, but I think this would just over complicate
a rather easy square cut for about 10* of change that
isn't or doesn't seem to be harming the balljoint anyway
Wild
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10 degrees on the front or rear of the spacer?
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Top, where the balljoint bolt up
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I understand that...................what I'm asking is would you angle it 10 degrees on the top plate, down v, towards the rear < of the vehicle or towards the front >?
By the way Goody I apologize fot the persistence.....It's so hard to describe here in cyber......Hey I misplaced your tel#. Send it to me again and I will call and we can chat about this..Thanks Kerry
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If I understand this ...
The two spacer plates are parallel, but the fact that the axel is being offset rearward (by 1"), the pinion angle changes ...
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When we were IFS, (like it was a sweet song) we shifted our ball joint 1 5/8" back and then extended our control arms 1 1/4" which extended our wheel base AND rotated our pinion up some. (This worked out great for us)
~Nate
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I understand that...................what I'm asking is would you angle it 10 degrees on the top plate, down v, towards the rear < of the vehicle or towards the front >?
By the way Goody I apologize fot the persistence.....It's so hard to describe here in cyber......Hey I misplaced your tel#. Send it to me again and I will call and we can chat about this..Thanks Kerry
Well like I said, I don't think there is enough
to gain by taking a sliver off of the riser section,
but a sliver off the front would be the spot I was
thinking of, but the over complication isn't worth
the gain, if there even is any
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everyone thinking of turning their pinion up :o please click on this link and read carefully. [url]http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/driveline/[/url]
That artical does not mention this scenerio
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAnA4gYs9hKs0AHfo8sWw5Fl9kNYIqqcSjPrrb3RZqOqjhx3xvRlAlAoenFPr75NOaupn0uJ0GCSO!6KsXx8yzwRmvrCteHvOHjrpEXI7iEqIVAvZXcgQ/Geometry.jpg?dc=4675467227345361421)
Ive been running my last two trackicks like that. Between the the two thats well over 200,000 miles. Not one single related problem. I dont have even a hint of vibration. As far as traction concerns were not runnin drag cars here. A 1.6 with a locker in it will hook up. Over rotating is fairly cheap easy and doesnt require custom driveline. My 2 cents
Mike
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the above pic is JUST talking about yoke ear alighnment NOT pinion angle . the one thats circled is pointing far passed the transfer (even though the angles ARE the same which further supports what i am saying), not at it as we have been discussing , and would definatily bind when the suspension goes up . traction is traction no matter how much power . locked or not you can go better with less pinion angle compared to an identical rig with more pinion angle period .
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I don't see how the pinion input angle
would affect traction on a control link
suspension system, with leafs I can see it.
Do you have any info, or articles to help
explain this ?
Thanks
Wild
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the pinioin still trys to rotate up through the rubber bushings and i think this is what causes the loss . i will reserch it better. i am talking about the traction loss from my own personal expierence mainly with my mustangs at the strip . they have a factory 4 link rear suspension and pointing the pinion down 3 or 4 degrees make a huge difference in the 60 ft times . my car ran 1/8th mile in 6.39 seconds|removethispart|@ 112 mph and 60 ft was 1.35 from around 1.5 with the stock pinion setting .
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the pinioin still trys to rotate up through the rubber bushings and i think this is what causes the loss . i will reserch it better. i am talking about the traction loss from my own personal expierence mainly with my mustangs at the strip . they have a factory 4 link rear suspension and pointing the pinion down 3 or 4 degrees make a huge difference in the 60 ft times . my car ran 1/8th mile in 6.39 seconds|removethispart|@ 112 mph and 60 ft was 1.35 from around 1.5 with the stock pinion setting .
Mustangs at the strip + Home Town = You must know Troy Furton :-/
Zig
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finally got around to fitting my simple 2" block today, per the Brazilian guy's design.
unfortunately my drive slopes, and after disconnecting the stock bolts, the diff rotated against the propshaft. I was expecting and had prepared for this and so had to chock the car and jack up the chassis to get room to insert the block, then jack the diff input collar (with a wooden block!) to get the right angle again.
all went together fine, 10mmx8.8 bolts, 3|removethispart|@ 80mm & 1 |removethispart|@ 70mm.
not easy to tighten up, so I'll check it again on the level after a few miles
what else do I need to adjust now? brakes?