ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: BLK_ARMR on January 18, 2005, 12:45:07 PM
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Here's the deal... **Warning: Really Long**
I have a 93 2 dr Tracker 4x4 with a 3" Bodylift. I have been driving it for about 2-2.5 weeks now. We have had very nice weather here for January (unseasonably warm). It went from a high in the mid 60's to the low 20's. Down to like 7 degrees at night. The day before yesterday, I got up went outside to go to work. Got in the trucklet, pushed in the clutch, started it, and it wouldn't come out of first gear. I mean I pulled with both hands and it wouldn't budge. This was the day after our first really cold night. So I let it warm up for about 5-6 minutes. Drive it around the block in first gear. Get back and it still won't come out of first. I let it warm up a bit longer. I shifted the transfer case into Neutral, still won't come out. Rocked the truck back and forth, back into 2wd, back to Neutral, still won't budge. Finally comes out and with a decent amount of force, goes into 2nd. Then it's fine. I wondered if maybe it had water in it and had frozen or something. So last night, I drained the tranny and put in new 75W 90 Synthetic Gear Oil.(my Dad works at Advance Auto Parts, that's what their computer said it called for. Called local Chevy dealer, they said the same thing 75W 90 Synthetic.) Drove it home, drove fine. Woke up this morning, went out, had left it in 2nd instead of first. It did the same thing. WOULDN'T BUDGE! >:( So I let it warm up to normal temp. then left in 2nd gear. Still wouldn't come out of 2nd. About halfway to work, it finally came out of 2nd, but would go over to 3rd or 4th. After another 30-60 seconds, it went into 3rd/4th. Then after another 30-60 seconds it went into 5th. It really seems like it's freezing, but that doesn't make any sense. It absolutely won't come out of gear until it warms up. Then it's fine. Even with brand new 75W 90 Synthetic. Did the same thing tonite when I left work (Been sitting outside from 9am-6pm. But after it had warmed up (again about halfway home) it came out and got progressivly smoother for the next few minutes. I have asked 3 local tranny guys and no one has ever seen a tranny do this, and I haven't either. I've seen them stiff to shift when cold, but never not want to come out of gear at all. Has anyone EVER experienced anything like this before. I'm baffled.... ??? ??? ???
Any help is greatly appreciated guys, sorry this was so long...
Bryan
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It's probably the seal on top of the shifter housing on the trans not sealing well and you got a little water in it. If you had to weld on your shifter to get it to fit with the body lift, you probably melted the boot a little.
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The shifter is a remote shifter. That is, the shifter handle doesn't go directly into the transmission.
When you pull on the shifter you are moving one of three shafts that go twords the front and then into the transmission. Some people have made the mastake of trying to fill the transmission through the shifter hold when they can't get the fill plug out.
You can remove the shifter by pulling up the boot (the one on the trans. You have to take apart the center consol and there will be a plate you can remove to get to the trans shifter.) You will see a ring a types, when you push down on it it moves. Well push down and turn it counter clockwise and it will pop out and you can remove the shifter.
Clean out and remove any water, grease it back up and put it together.
Hopes this helps.
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When mine are left out in the cold it becomes a bit difficult to shift. But mine feels like a clutch thing not a tranny thing. If I pull out and shift clutchless it does fine. Or if I let it sit there and warm up a bit.
Zig
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Definitely not a clutch thing, I know what you mean. My 240sx is like that. The clutch pedal is stiff in the mornings, but it always shifts fine. The tracker will not come out of whatever gear it was left in the night before. Not at all...but I can take off in that gear (1st or 2nd) and go down the road fine. So the clutch is OK. And I didn't install the body lift, so I don't know anything about how that went on. I just know it's the 3" Calmini. I talked to a Mustang guru tonight that said mustangs have this problem sometimes...something about the oil gets so cold/thick that it won't come out from around the syncros until it warms up. I'm going to change the oil again with some thinner Redline MTL (according to his recomendation). It has a lower pour point and lower viscosity at low temperatures. So we'll see what happens. I may try to take a look at what lil_truck said also...
Thanks guys, any other helpful suggestions or experiences...please post 'em.
Bryan
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Water in the tranny! I went through this years ago when I got water contamination and didn't realize after a DEEP water crossing. I coudn't get it out of gear until it warmed up and disolved/broke up/melted the water.
Easy way to check is drive or idles it till it is loose and warmed up.....then remove the tranny fill plug and see if it's milky in color. May have to stick a pinky finger or screw driver in the hole to check.
Let me know the results.........I bet it's water though!
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 Some people have made the mastake of trying to fill the transmission through the shifter hold when they can't get the fill plug out.
So, uh, what happens when someone does this? Not saying I did, but what if?? :-X
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I oddly had that problem when I left my Tracker out in the winter for a few weeks, then started it up to put it in the garage... shifter wouldn't budge. So I said fuck it, and waited until the next day, which was warm, and it went in and out of gear fine. I second the cleaning the linkage out/greasing it up.... it's actually on my looooong list of things to do this winter.
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Mine, on occasion, and for no apparent reason, doesn't want to go into 1st, 3rd, and 5th (the "forward" positions of the stick). It'll pop out, when it DOES go in. Then the problem will just go away for a few months..
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Yeah, it's water. Mine froze up camping a couple of times. This was a bit earlier in the build up process so I didn't know about taking the shifter out and trying to grease everything up... instead I took it to a tranny shop, where they tore it apart, called me, and said, there's WATER in here!!
But don't be surprised if you take the shifter out and see this either:
(http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/SAS/SASday4and5/DCP_5257.jpg)
(http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/SAS/SASday4and5/DCP_5259.jpg)
Ah... MUD..
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But if there was water in the tranny wouldn't it have come out when we drained it the night before last? It was warm since I had driven it from my house to dad's house, so everything had been up to temperature, and it was shifting like normal. I figured it would have drained out then. If not, then what do I need to do to check? I'm assuming something like what was mentioned earlier, take the console out? Anyone got a little more detailed explanation for getting that top part of the shifter off and everything?
Thanks again guys, this is a big help!
Bryan
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But if there was water in the tranny wouldn't it have come out when we drained it the night before last? It was warm since I had driven it from my house to dad's house, so everything had been up to temperature, and it was shifting like normal. I figured it would have drained out then. If not, then what do I need to do to check? I'm assuming something like what was mentioned earlier, take the console out? Anyone got a little more detailed explanation for getting that top part of the shifter off and everything?
Thanks again guys, this is a big help!
Bryan
No, not all of the water would have come out. Part of the reason is because of the difference between water and oil viscosity. Plus, if it's anything like mud or water in the top section, then definately no, it wouldn't have drained.
So, just take the center console out, it's easy, two screws up under where it comes in contact with the dash center, some stupid plastic clips between the seats, and two more screws in the back on either side by the ashtray (if you have one). Just then navigate it out between the seatbelts and the shifter boots.
Then, lift up the shifter boots so you can get at the ball where it connects to the top of the tranny, push down and turn. A flathead screwdriver might help. It's easier to see how it's done when you are looking right at it.
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OK sweet...
I'll try to take a look at that ASAP. Hopefully tonite when I get off work...
So when I get that piece off, I'm looking for what? Mud, water, anything like that... If I find it, how would I go about removing it? Shop Vac? Sorry for the dumb questions, but I've never seen a tranny do this before...
By the way, dad has been talking to a lot of people in teh last couple of days and everyone seems to think 75W 90 is too thick. Some are saying to run Dexron in it. What do you guys think about this? Anyone else running 75W 90 in a manual tranny at temperatures aroun 0 deg. F ??
Thanks Again!
Bryan
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everyone seems to think 75W 90 is too thick.  Some are saying to run Dexron in it.  What do you guys think about this?
No, No, No, NO, NO, No, NO!
NO!
No Dexron!
75W90.
Really!
Well, you can run 75W85 too, I think.
No problems at 20 below, even.
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No, No, No, NO, NO, No, NO!
NO!
No Dexron!
That's what I thought... So you've had temps of -20 where you are and it has never done this?
Only other thing I'm considering putting in it is Redline MTL (Manual Transmission Lubricant) which is 70W 80 GL4 Gear Oil. It has a much lower viscosity than regular 75W 90 at low temperatures but only a little less at normal temps...
Thanks again everyone!
Bryan
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So you've had temps of -20 where you are and it has never done this? ÂÂ
Oh, my 4-door may be a little STIFF at -20 (she's the daily driver), but no, no problem like you described. My 2-door has problems sometimes, in 80º weather - her problem is completely different.
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OK, well I guess I need to get the shift boot etc off...and see what I can see... Is the picture that heather posted earlier what I am looking for???
Also, what do you run 75W 90? What brand? (just curious)
Bryan
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Yeah, pretty much that's what you'll be looking for..
it should be pretty plain to you when you get the shifter out and look at it.
I run just plain old valvoline 80/90 in the tranny and 85/140 in the tcases.. but that's just me..
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Also, the shifter handle spins off (counter clockwise).
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Cool,
So spin the shift knob off.
Take out all screws/clips in trin piece.
Pull boot up and off.
what about the t-case shifter, that's in teh same trim piece so do I take that knob/boot off too?
Then I assume I'll be left with a shift rod sticking up out of a hole. Right? Is that where I'm looking for water or is this where I push down and twist something out ? Then look for water?
I feel like the biggest d*mba$$. I'm very mechanically inclined, I've been working on cars for years. But my dad doesn't have a computer that works worth a dern so I want' to make sure I know what to do when I get there...
Thanks again guys, I owe you guys!
Bryan
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Once you get the boots off - there are TWO boots, and a rubber cap over the tranny opening - you do the push and turn 1/4 turn counter-clockwise (or if you're in the UK, anti-clockwise, or if you're an "old school pagan", widdershins), and the thing that holds the stick in, pops out - lift the stick out, and inspect for nastiness.
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So there are 2 boots and a cap? Interesting. Well I'm getting off in a few minutes so I guess I'll head to dad's and see what I can find out...
Thanks so much for the help everyone!
Bryan
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OK, I got the shifter out and it doesn't look as bad as Heather's pic, but there is definitely some trail grime in there ::).
How do I go about cleaning/relubing everything?
Do I clean teh shifter rod with carb cleaner?
What do I grease it back up with? 75W 90 Gear oil?
Also, when I look down in the hole that's open now (no shifter rod) I can see fluid. It's like a cloudy brown color. When I drained the fluid last night, did this fluid drain out too? If not that stuff got really cloudy/dirty really quickly cause when I put it in it was like a clear golden brown. So does this drain out too? If not, how can I change that oil? Need something to suck it out maybe?
I really need to get this fixed... :-/
Thanks guys!
Bryan
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The hole left by the shifter has no passages that go the the tranny.
One way to clean it is to just use a towl and wipe it out the best you can.
You could also try to fill up the hole with mineral spirets, and then wipe it out. Then jack up the front so that it all runs back to the hole to be cleaned out.
I would then lub up everything with gear oil. Even pour a LITTLE into the hole and button up the whole thing.
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The only other way would be to take the shifter adapter off the trany. It's only held on by 4 bolts, and with the 3" body lift it's easy to get to the bolts.
Look at Heathers pictures. You can see most of it there.
Once the adapter is off, you can disassemble it and clean it.
Of course this takes more time and skill.
Your call
Good luck.
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MAKE SURE!!!
If you look close at the picture you will see a small rubber boot in the bottom on the hole. It's sitting sideways. Make sure you get this back on the bottom of the shifter. I can slide up and get lost in the adapter. Happen to me.
Also the black ring comes out for better cleaning.
(http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/SAS/SASday4and5/DCP_5257.jpg)
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So there's not supposed to be ANYTHING (liquid-wise) in that hole? Cause it has quite a bit of milky oil in it so it seems...
Bryan
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Also, since that doesn't have passages to the tranny itself, should i use thicker gear oil to lube it up so it stays better, or some sort of grease instead of oil that would be thicker?
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Not a lot. Just anof to keep things moving back and forth.
And from rusting.
When you pull on the shifter all your doing is moving some rods back and forth. They go the the front and go into the trany.
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I think I greased mine up. Some bearing grease. That tends to be more water resistant.
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awesome!!
Gotta run, advance auto closes in 10 minutes
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Good Luck.
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All I have to say is WOW!
You guys are awesome...especially lil_truck for giving me the quick responses at the last minute last night. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who helped me, without you guys I would have never known what to do. No one here locally knew anything about it. They all said put thinner fluid in it... >:( Anyway, I will post again when I have enough time...Going to get my digital camera and take a pic of the water that came out. There was about a third of a cup of dirty water in there. I just went out and checked this morning and it shifts just like normal! Anyway, will post more ASAP with a pic of that nasty water!
Thanks a million guys!
Bryan
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This was a great thread. We should make this a sticky. Or at least in a FAQ topic or something.. He isn't the first person to have asked about a frozen shifter.
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Now ya just gotta be careful with those deep water/high pressure/speed water crossings.
~Nate
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Not ya just gotta be careful with those deep water/high pressure/speed water crossings.
~Nate
Is there any other kind ;)
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Glad it all work out for ya.
Kinda on the subject:
Has anyone come up with a good replacement boot for the shifter where it meet the trany?
My fix right now (mine was cracked) was to use a pedal bike intertube. It fit nice and tight around the base where I used a zip tie to hold it in place. I made it around 6+inches long so that it ended just under the interior boot. I then used 3M (high quality) electrical tape to seal the top of the boot to the shifter.
Seems to be working ok. So what has others done?
Note: On electrical tape. You ever notice at Home Depot you can get a stack of electrical tape for $5 or you can get one roll of 3M for $3. All I can say is you get what you pay for. This is one area I'd never skimp on.
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So, uh, what happens when someone does this? Not saying I did, but what if??  :-X
Ummm............? (In regards to filling the tranny at the point where the shifter goes into the tranny.)
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Nothing, it never got to the trany though, but your shifter should be well lubricated!
If you think your trany needs to be toped off pull the side fill plug. The oil should be level with the plug.
ANGTHER NOTE: Dont drain the transmission untill you get the fill plug out. That goes for the Transfercase, and Diffs also. Several people have had this problem. I always done it that way,until what I've read on this board, and have just got lucky to have no problems (for once).
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Wasn't me going through the water in the first place... The guy I bought it from went thru a hole that came up over the hood... I won't go thru anything that deep anytime soon. I need to seal up the top of that shifter with something...
I do have one question. The inner rubber shift boot...is that supposed to be right side up like the outer boot, or upside down pointing down toward the ground. Mine was upside down, so that's how I put it back...Just curious.
It's snowing here now, so as soon as I can get pics up I will...
Thanks again guys, O and I think making this a sticky is a great idea. I know no one around here knew anything about it, so you guys were my saving grace.
Bryan
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The boot goes up when the truck is stock. With a 3" body lift, the boot rides up on the shift lever and there's too much travel.
So people flip them upside down or leave them out.
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Gotcha ;) Well I brought my digicam with me today so when I get off work I'll try to snap a couple pics of that muddy water that came out...
Bryan
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OK BRIAN...THIS HAS BEEN MY PROBLEM HERE IN UPSTATE NY AS WELL. BEEN LOOKING AT POSTS FOR A FEW HOURS SINCE I'VE HAD NO TIME IN PAST 6 MONTHS OR SO TO KEEP UP WITH THINGS AROUND HERE. BUT WALLA HERE'S MY SAME PROBLEM AS YOU HAVE STATED. MINE WOULD AT 1ST BREAK FREE WHEN TRUCK WARMED UP, BUT WITH THE LATEST COLD TREND I'VE HAD TO PHYSICALLY BREAK IT LOOSE & THEN IT SHIFTS JUST FINE.
I JUST HAD MY FRIEND CHANGE THE FLUIDS IN THE MOTOR, FRONT & REAR DIFFS, THE TRANSFER CASE & OF COURSE THE TRANSMISSION. I FIGURED SINCE HE OFFERED TO DO IT I COULDN'T PASS UP THE WHOLE ANCHALOTTA sp.
BUT STILL TO NO AVAIL IT WAS ACTING AS IF THERE WAS A KNUCKLE OR YOKE OR SOMETHING FREEZING UP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STICK. SO WE WERE GONNA TEAR THIS APART THE NEXT TIME WE HAD A SPARE MOMENT. NOW I'LL HAVE A BETTER IDEA WHAT TO DO ONCE I GET IT APART. SO DON'T FEEL LIKE A DUMB AZZ CAUSE YOU HAVE HELPED ANOTHER ZUKER OUT WITH YOUR QUESTION.
INEW I COULD ASK THE QUESTION AND GET AN ANSWER, BUT I TRIED THE SEARCH OPTION FIRST AND SHAZAM HERE WAS MY ANSWER , AS I WAS THINKING IT WOULD BE WATER ON TOP, CAUSE THE FLUID IN THE TRANNY WAS MILKY.
THANKS MATTY D. 8)
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The boot goes up when the truck is stock.  With a 3" body lift, the boot rides up on the shift lever and there's too much travel.
So people flip them upside down or leave them out.
Anyone ever try a set of shock boots of a dirtbike? They come is sets of 2....
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OK BRIAN...THIS HAS BEEN MY PROBLEM HERE IN UPSTATE NY AS WELL. BEEN LOOKING AT POSTS FOR A FEW HOURS SINCE I'VE HAD NO TIME IN PAST 6 MONTHS OR SO TO KEEP UP WITH THINGS AROUND HERE. BUT WALLA HERE'S MY SAME ...<SNIP>
Try using water proof grease.. It may seperate the water from the grease enough to keep it from freezing.
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WOW! 4 PAGES!!!
Great...glad to hear this thread may do someone besides me some good.  Another tip, after you get the console and rubber boots off and the shifter out, the water will be down in a hole in the adapter box on top of the tranny.  I used a plastic syringe (sp?) with a piece of tubing on the end to draw the water out.  After I did that I sprayed a little WD-40 down in it (WD-40 displaces water, so I figured it couldn't hurt).  I cleaned the shifter and the spring and metal collar all with brake cleaner.  Then I lubed them up with quite a bit of bearing grease.  Now the shifter is a little stiff in the morning, but it still shifts fine.  Once it's warmed up it's perfect.  Also, make sure your friend used GL-4 Gear oil, not GL-5 (GL-5 corrodes the brass synchros in GL-4 trannies).  I used GL-5 at first (no one stocked any GL-4) until I got some GL-4 the next week.  After changing from Coastal brand GL-5 to Redline MT-90 GL-4, I can tell a difference.  It shifts smoother than with the GL-5.  We had a wintry mix the last few days here, so still no no water pics, but I'll get 'em ASAP...just so you guys can see what came out.
Bryan
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Water in the tranny! I went through this years ago when I got water contamination and didn't realize after a DEEP water crossing. I coudn't get it out of gear until it warmed up and disolved/broke up/melted the water.
Easy way to check is drive or idles it till it is loose and warmed up.....then remove the tranny fill plug and see if it's milky in color. May have to stick a pinky finger or screw driver in the hole to check.
Let me know the results.........I bet it's water though!
This was the 5th post?......but it took 4 pages and 40 replies later to figure it out? What am I missing here?*
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This was the 5th post?......but it took 4 pages and 40 replies later to figure it out? What am I missing here?*
Yes...that was the 5th post.....
And if you read that post, you should have at least read the 1st post, where I stated that I had already changed the gear oil in the tranny.  So if that was the cause, I would have fixed it before I had posted and this thread wouldn't even exist.  But instead, the water was in the upper adapter box on top of the tranny, which has no passages to the actual tranny, so if water gets in it, it doesn't drain with the rest of the gear oil out of the tranny... ::) ::) ::)
This was a very informative thread, yes a few posts here and there may be a little OT, but the thread over all is very helpful, as you can see by NY_SIDEKICKER's post.....and yes you also just added to that 40 replies making yet another useless post to a helpful thread.
Bryan
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no such thing as a useless post..... ;D it usually tends to help someone ;) if nothing more than helping someone pass time reading all the b.s. we post in here on a daily basis :P
thanks matty d. 8)
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TTT
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Well, this post just helped out another fellow zuker. This is exactly the problem with the 93 Tracker formerly of BionicOnion and now I know how to fix it without draining and re-filling the tranny(again, because he said he just had it done). Thanks everyone for their input!
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I thought I'd bring this post back to the front with some pictures of the shift box that sits on top of the tranny. You can see here that fluid does not pass between the box, and the transmission itself. So DO NOT fill your tranny from the shifter hole! :)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/DCP_7301m.jpg)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/DCP_7302m.jpg)