ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: zaggy on June 28, 2005, 04:50:45 AM
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I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done much serious off roading but I've done a pile of other stuff and I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone seems to want rid of the IFS on the Kicks.
I see the IFS being an advantage
- Better ride on and off road
- Should be able to power down better when the going
gets tough
- Should be able to take extreme angles better without
upsetting the vehicle
For the minimal extremish off roading I do I would never consider getting rid of the IFS.
But I would really like to understand what I'm missing
cause I figure I must be missing something, right?
Zag
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zaggy
I am thinking that it is a matter of strength vs price and of course opinion. the tracker has one downfall as with most rigs of the forign nature, they wanted to make them light to ship easier. this means that they designed them to handle mild 4 wheelin but nothing like some of these guys do. so you have to build it stronger witch costs lots of $ (for someone who dosent have the recources to build the stuff from scratch).
you can p/u a set of toy axels for less than you would pay for a anvil. so there is your logic. it does make sense but it doesent mean it iis the option that i would necessarily go with. I like the sidekick for what it is, a great driving, economical, capible 4 wheel drive :D
my .02
jason
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;DGood Question;D
I'm with you on the IFS. I personally love being able to jump in my Kick, drive it anywhere I wheel, trail ride all week and than drive it home(holding 70 comfortable on the interstate).
I personally think the cost would be the same or a little less to beef up the IFS than buy an axle, build it, make a suspension, new steering, etc......  I remember a thread a while back about comparing the beefed up IFS VS doing s solid axle swap in a Kick. If you do a search for Tundra it will probably lead you to the thread (I posted a new Tundra my friend did a SAS swap to in that thread) maybe give you an idea.
Plus it's realy fun freaking out the super flexy SAS guys on the trail as you lift a wheel 2-3 feet in the air as you do an obsticle 8)
Zig
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A solid axle will stay on the ground better. The up force on one side will push the other side down hopefully keeping both tires on the ground.
With independent suspension, when one side goes up, it will compress the spring on that side with no effect on the other side. It makes for a sooth ride but not for articulation.
Cwkick
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Well Im going to attempt a toyota axle swap on my Tracker, but doing the Toyota IFS swap. I've been researching the Total Chaos super articulation kit for the toyota and its pretty much longer a-arms with T-100 axles. So once I get the axles and regear them I will begin with the installation. Since I would have to fab up new a-arms anyway I'm going to play with the T-100 CV's and see what kind of articulation I can achieve but I'm expecting about the same, 12 inch of movement in the front. ;D
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i can fit a 35 inch tire doing a simpile, cheap SAS
trying to fit a 35 inch tire on IFS and make it hold up... well i'm sure Hagen will be here soon enough. ;D
stu
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the only thing that I personally don't like about most SAS is the use of leaf springs......( I am not knocking anyone ) the the use of coils would seem to be a better choice as you want articulation and some ride quality just drive a YJ and a TJ and you will wee the difference.
on a kick I like the IFS alot for the ride quality but the weakness of the CV is the biggest issue. I think it is a matter of resource and wheeling extremes more than anything else..some are crazy and some are more crazy...you can make a long travel IFS Toyota pre runners and baja guys know this....$$$$$ tho
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I always thought you got better ground clearance with a SAS on some obstacles because the entire axle moves up with the wheel.
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I used to Race RC trucks, gass Baja, stadium and prerunner,
The trucks were 18 to 24" wheel bases, and some ran solid axels and some ran IFS and solid rear, i Liked the four wheel wishbone indipendant suspention, and used to build my own custom A-Arms and shock towers, better controll and traction,
NOW for thoes that dont know you ahve the same things to think about in RC racing that you have in full size, power to weight, traction chasis suspension, and these are not the $30 rc cars you buy at radio shack, these are fourwheel drive, geared cars taht range from a $300 STARTER chasis all the way to champion trucks with titanium chasis runing 1k+ for the chasis alone without the suspension., but in gass RC your motor and fuel weigh 2times more then the rest of the truck constructed
I liked the FWIS because of the clearance, we ran the diferintials up inside the chasis, and ran longer Arms , with controll rods, and a dogbone drive axel, "similar to a CV axel" down to the wheel, and then a hub and wheel, disk breaks, mounted on the drive axels instead of the wheels, thoes things are spendy and to lose a wheel going 40 -50 REAL MPH not scale mph. the disks last longer inside the chasis.
And we came up with a IS that let the RC at 3IN ground cleariance put the fron wheel 10IN off the ground while haveing the other 3 wheels on the ground and accomplish
6IN of travel on each tire , while keeping the chasis of the truck almost level.
ew called it a floating indipendant suspension, i have been workin on blueprints for a few years for aplication to Off road Vehicles, was set back when the RC trucks burned in a garage fire, and all the sketches i hade and working model, but its diffrent on a bigger vehicle, lot of strength issues to figure out and a LOT of math i would go into more detail, but it will be a while befor i have the resources to build and test a model, but i have been looking at the zuk as a good place to start. we could also adjust hight with servos, from 1IN ground clearince to 3 in and mantain all flex throught the hight adjustments.
Once i get a perlimenary set of plans that work in auto cad, I will seek help from some of the skilled patrons I know and Read about here
any way i think IS is MUCH better then solid axel.
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A zuke that could put the front tire up higher then its hood and still sit level, that would be EXTREME, but the ability to put one front tier up higher then its hood, and the opisite back tire at the same height, and keep the other 2 on the ground, whithout twisting the chasis, that would be AWSOME
However this would probably not be street legal, and would coast probably coast 5 to 6 k + the cost of a starter rig.
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Man nobudy gona respond to my post?
I am not FOS, and it is possible, a little chalenging respons of some sort would be intresting, oh well.
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I'm with Zaggy and Mythose, I like
the IFS and I have thought about
doing the unspeakable, IRS :o
Give you more rear ground clearance
and way better departure angle, but
then again, I'm a nut ;D
Hello, my name is Wild, and I'm a Zookaholic
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FIS = Fully indipentant suspention, then you get in to 4wheel stearing, DROLL wish i had 20K laying around would make somthing just out there.
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Ah com on Wild, I'd go with eccentric, not nut.
I keep thinkin that a properly set up IFS combined with a similar IRS is the route to go....
Years ago when I was running sprints everyone ran
beam axles front and rear. Along came a guy in the World of outlaws (Sammy Swindel) and he ran an IFS 1 year..worked great. Next year he comes back with an IRS. Beat tar out of everyone, came out the corners like the Space Shuttle. The solution, they banned it.
The Hummer uses 4WIS and can go almost anywhere
and Lamborgini had it on the LM400 with amazing results.
I think that if I ever get into the extreme thing I'm going to look into it...wheel travel, traction, operating angles...it just looks like a winner.
Zag
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Zagy when your there let me know, put some things into motion show the off road world what ground clearance is., distance from the ground to pumpkin, or distance from the ground to the chasis, i would prefer distance to the chasis!
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I don't know Mythose.....
I looked at some of those videos after you and Snofalls made your comments on the other thread.
Over the years I've had the chance to go 1/4 mile in 9 sec, over 185mph on the road race course, flown aerobatics at all kinds of angles, saw the dark side of 50,000 feet and got to ride back seat at the speed of sound.
But you guys are crazy, those angles scare **** outta me
Zag
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i love my IFS regardless of what anyone else says or does.
people always say go SAS and be done with it. but i will be keeping the IFS all the way. a lot of reasons have been already mentioned, but for me, i think the main reason is for the clearance.
i am aiming for about 25" or so under the front crossmember, this is where the back of the front diff bolts too.
clearance is everything, maybe not so much for other things, but on what i have to drive up here, it is. theres a lot of mud, and bog holes up here, and i usually find that the front xmember usually becomes a bulldozer half way through.
so clearing the front and middle of the vit, and letting the rear diff drag isnt such a big problem. also, when in those giant ruts, i would like to get the tyres digging in instead of the chassis.
and the moment, i have about 16" from bottom of chassis rail to flat ground half way between front and rear tyres.
other measurements that people can use to compare is the door handle height, measured from underside of door handle to ground. front xmember, and rear diff clearances too. and wheel base and width/track.
maybe we should all get some measurements, and start another thread to compare where our trucklets sit. i;m thinking its can only be a good thing if you have a goal to work towards.
IFS all the way boys.
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I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done much serious off roading but I've done a pile of other stuff and I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone seems to want rid of the IFS on the Kicks.
I see the IFS being an advantage
- Better ride on and off road
- Should be able to power down better when the going
gets tough
- Should be able to take extreme angles better without
upsetting the vehicle
For the minimal extremish off roading I do I would never consider getting rid of the IFS.
But I would really like to understand what I'm missing
cause I figure I must be missing something, right?
Zag
This is awesome. :)
(I love the opportunity to help people see the light)
Incase you want to know, this topic has been hashed in great length and a search would reveal pages and pages of nothing but opinions.
And here's mine!
again.
- Better ride on and off road
Define 'better'.
Are we talking STOCK Sidekick IFS then I'd probably say;
*IFS is probably smoother on and off road, if you call off-road gravel plowed roads. (which I'd call 'on road')
If you call off-road the Rubicon, I haven't seen or ever heard of a stock Sidekick IFS make it through the CON yet. (I've heard of stock SAS jeeps making it though)
Better to me is being able to go places my stock one wouldn't go.
*IFS is probably weaker on/off road, compared too stock toyota SAS trucks (using toyotas as an example as its a pretty good representation of the first place people who do SAS go to) as there are more moving parts to fail on IFS and they are just plain old smaller/weaker.
Better to me is not having to replace stock parts that fail when put into heavy duty use.
- Should be able to power down better when the going
gets tough
* Again define 'power down',
Is 'power down' the ability to take more torque?
If so, better to me might be my want to take a Toyota Birfield joint over a Sidekick CV joint.
- Should be able to take extreme angles better without
upsetting the vehicle
* One could assume you are talking about CG and the roll over prone 'Sammy' comparison. But I think that this would dig up whole nother can of worms.
Over all, I'd say that most people have their reasons for getting rid of IFS. I'd say that the number one reason is for strength. Fixed suspensions can generally take more punishment over movable ones.
Straight lines are generally stronger than curved ones.
(leaf springs, straight axles)
Levers exert more force. IFS = bunch of levers.
SAS are easier to design, build and fix over the long haul.
(which is one of the reasons why solid axles were invented/implemented first over IFS to begin with.)
If you follow this thought through you can see where we are going...
Are we there yet?
Can you imagine building an IFS charriot suspension, with nothing more then casting technology?
Can you imagine building an IFS wooden wagon suspension, with nothing more than pine trees for repairs?
Can you imagine IFS on an air-plane? Awefully heavy when a solid axle does just the same.
Can you imagine IFS on Monster Trucks? Stronger is better than flexiable. (they are finally getting around to IFS here, but it's taken years and TONS-O-Cash.
Can you imagine IFS on baja racers?
(You can now because they have millions of dollars to spend on exotic parts and learn from and are able to apply to their vehicles and have crews paid to follow them around when they brake things.)
Motorcycles make it great because they have a solid axles!
ATVs don't.
So its really quite simple.
Some people have pushed their technological limits of the Suzuki Sidekick IFS design and needed it for something more.
Some people have over come of of those technological limits by designing their own majorly improved IFS systems and are doing great things with them.
Those of us who haven't gotten there and need a solution now, turn to SAS.
:)
~Nate
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Thanks for the exacting opinion Natebert
I can see where you get your point of view and now hav an understanding of the why.
By the same token I see that while it's the simple solution and the most popular due to current cost I think the 4WIS is going to come in the future..
Till then or till I can work up the nerve to try some of this more extreme stuff, at least I gots duh info as to the why?
thanks
Zag
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Although I will be keeping My IFS...
Bigger Tires = More Ground Clearance
More Lift is needed for bigger tires
SAS = More lift
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Can you imagine IFS on baja racers?
(You can now because they have millions of dollars to spend on exotic parts and learn from and are able to apply to their vehicles and have crews paid to follow them around when they brake things.)
Nathan, your slipping
Baja buggies are 4WIS and they break stuff ;)
but you knew that huh.
Wild
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Yes i think we can all apply the cost sinario, but a properly built IFS will exact less force on the driving parts and break less, but it will cost a lot more, 4wIS breaks because it is not beefy enough, i know how to impliment my suspension in a form that would work, but it would break in really extreen condition, and you would have body roll, now i am looking into ways to make it bombproof, because; in extreme you dont want it to break.
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it costs alot more to make a titanium suspension for a truck then it does for an RC.
and parts still got bent /broke doing jumps on the baja RCs with titanium parts. i dont think anything can be made not to break, cause if it does not break we will find harder places to go, and if it extends our reaches eventualy everything will break, we are limited to wree we can go on our equipment, which is limited on our budget.
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Here is another common reason that I am surpised nobody has mentioned yet, ARTICULATION and SUSPENSION TRAVEL. A solid axle on both ends of the vehicle is much easier to make travel. The only limits to suspension travel is the length of the shocks. On an IFS, CV length and angles are most often the limiting factors. Anybody that has messed with an IFS much knows that if you get 12" travel out of it, you are doing very well. If you want to get a hint of "real" travel, just take a look at any of Heathers posts at the bottom where there are pics of her Kick flexed. Try that with an IFS.
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Not to mention, with IFS, when your suspension is compressed, your ground clearance is DECREASED. Imagine dropping off of a 10" ledge that has a rock at the bottom right under where your diff is. With a solid axle, your diff will stop going down when your tires hit bottom and, assuming you have enough GC to begin with, miss said rock. With an IFS, your diff will continue down when the tires hit bottom due to suspension compression sending your diff straight into the rock. Just one more thing to consider.
It aint for everybody, but to the hard core enthusiast, it has many advantages.
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I will after patenting release The info to get the flex out of the IFS / IRS, and when I hold patend, I will release rights to thoes capable of building there own units. i have been workin on it and am close to haveing body roll eleminated and mantaining strength. And would be verry hapy after patend to strike deals with aftermarket manufacturers that support the off road communitty, and verry not intrested in doing buissnes with thoes that dont, it might have a market in aftermarket general use as bolt on kits, and it may be to expensive, but i KNOW there will be a market for it in competition rock crawling, and off road raceing. ÂÂ
sorry if I offend anyone with this, but I want to target the competition market for revenue,  now for the guys that have the knowledge and want to just do it, after patends finalize we could come to an agreement about the desgins for you, at minimal to no cost,  and if it is already patend ideal, I will post drawings auto cad models specs measurments that can be applied to any vehicle, given the righ knowledge.
And I want to see it in motion with a feesable price for the consumer, and made of what it needs to be made of for strengh,
but i cant post the knowledge of 12 years of desgin and look up next month and say "hay that was my ideal" had that experiance in a desgin competion for GM in high school.
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I will after patenting release The info to get the flex out of the IFS / IRS, and when I hold patend, I will release rights to thoes capable of building there own units. i have been workin on it and am close to haveing body roll eleminated and mantaining strength. And would be verry hapy after patend to strike deals with aftermarket manufacturers that support the off road communitty, and verry not intrested in doing buissnes with thoes that dont, it might have a market in aftermarket general use as bolt on kits, and it may be to expensive, but i KNOW there will be a market for it in competition rock crawling, and off road raceing. ÂÂ
sorry if I offend anyone with this, but I want to target the competition market for revenue,  now for the guys that have the knowledge and want to just do it, after patends finalize we could come to an agreement about the desgins for you, at minimal to no cost,  and if it is already patend ideal, I will post drawings auto cad models specs measurments that can be applied to any vehicle, given the righ knowledge.
And I want to see it in motion with a feesable price for the consumer, and made of what it needs to be made of for strengh,
but i cant post the knowledge of 12 years of desgin and look up next month and say "hay that was my ideal" had that experiance in a desgin competion for GM in high school.
Good luck, Hope it works out for you. I like to see that kind of engineering, but for me it is just too expensive and complicated.
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allright ive had enough . ifs has its place ,on the road ,doing the dessert races trophy trucks etc. but rockcrawling ,not yet . the red bull s10 was 4wis,and after half of a season he went back to solid axels , he did pretty well but he felt the independent suspension was holding him back . i saw the writeup in 4wd and sport i think wile he was building it . he has some serious $$$$$ in it and it looked asome . but its not beig used anymore to my knolage .
yes ifs can crawl but the amount of mods you have to do to get it to work in rocks just isnt worth it to me. not to menton lack of wheele travel.
i love my sas tracker, i want a ifs but for prerunning not rockcrawling . and as cheep as zooks are why not have a different one for everything . ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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lol loveing it, and I will post when the papers get back from patend, but yes it would be cheeper to have 2 zooks.
what is the BAC limit for posting?
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what is the BAC limit for posting?
.08 ;D
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I think it rather depends on what you want to do. I've read all the posts, and you all look a lot at rockcrawling. So you need strength, articulation, etc. A SAS for this application will work perfect.
However, there are different ways to wheel. See racing, desert routes, etc... I see that a daily driver with a SAS would be unconfortable and doesn't handle well. I see that desert cars with two solid axles are uncomfortable and don't handle well. Purpose built rallye raid cars are all 4wis for the much superior handlng. And they break, but as much as would be expected with any race car. Other rallye raid cars, such as Toyota HDJ 80 or Mercedes G never do really well, they are normally surpassed by IFS cars (Toyota HDJ 100, etc...)
So I think each person has it's own needs, so you might not need it. I know I don't.
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Well then you should probably give me a DWP ;D
drinking while posting :-/ I duno
la la la de de da ::)
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Well then you should probably give me a DWP  ;D
drinking while posting :-/ I duno
la la la de de da  ::)
Rossy ocifer, I dron't dink! ;)
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Why do people keep saying that IFS cant rockcrawl?! ???Please stop comparing trail rigs to professional rockcrawlering rigs. Im sick of hearing Red bull or Walker Evans tried and failed. I can guarantee that both of their rigs could have kicked all our asses on the trail. Also dont think that Straight axle rock buggies dont cost a ton too.
Also Im hearing things like the axles are too small.... so are sami axles, thats why we put bigger ones in. Why cant you do this with IFS? I will admit that it takes more iimagination but that doesnt mean it doesnt work.
IFS
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/temp/smth2.jpg)
Also IFS
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/temp/rokpil.jpg)
Mike
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IFS compared to straight axle on the same obstical in upper heldorado.
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/moab2002/heldorado-spike.jpg)
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/moab2002/heldorado-kenny11.jpg)
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woo hoo, go mike! 100% agree with you.
with an IFS, limit front travel to safe operating angles, and lock front and rear with crawler gears. this would make a very capable rig.
hey mike, who's kick is that orange one? i love the paint work on it. is it a 2 colour chameleon? nice.
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I still wouldn't mind having a Toyota IFS front drivetrain set up in a Trackick, but that takes a lot of skill, time, and money... setting up an SAS with leafs is much simpler than doing a custom IFS swap/buildup with enough lift to clear 35"+ tires. Plus there's always the fact that for the money, most of the time, solid axles are stronger.
As everyone's already said, it's mostly about personal preference.
BTW, I still love your rig, Mike, and would love to build something similar in the future, just to have a super-lightweight trail machine. Your rig is definately on my list of all time favorite rigs ;D </asskissing>
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([url]http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/moab2002/heldorado-kenny11.jpg[/url])
That's some real lousy flex for a SFA (no offense intended to the rig owner). A good flexy SFA rig wouldn't pik a tire as bad as that.
Don't get me wrong, I have IFS still, it's capable, but I pik tire more than I should, and the body roll can get hairy. It's just the nature of my beast. Dunno if/when I'll SAS the trac. May never do it, and just live with what I got.
(I'm starting to think a true buggy may be in my future).
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....
So its really quite simple.
Some people have pushed their technological limits of the Suzuki Sidekick IFS design and needed it for something more.
Some people have over come some of those technological limits by designing their own majorly improved IFS systems and are doing great things with them.
Those of us who haven't gotten there and need a solution now, turn to SAS.
:)
~Nate
At least in my experience.
See, it is simple.
;D
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An ultra flexy straight axle trucklet
is way too squirrely for the road,
almost to the point of being unsafe,
at least in the sammy I drove it was,
kind of like driving a boat
Wild
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That's some real lousy flex for a SFA (no offense intended to the rig owner). A good flexy SFA rig wouldn't pik a tire as bad as that.
Don't get me wrong, I have IFS still, it's capable, but I pik tire more than I should, and the body roll can get hairy. It's just the nature of my beast. Dunno if/when I'll SAS the trac. May never do it, and just live with what I got.
(I'm starting to think a true buggy may be in my future).
I still dissagree
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/zookimelt2001/Mvc-43s.jpg)
If you getting body roll its something to do with your spring rate or angles. I get a lot of body roll but I like it that way. The rockstar has almost no bodyroll.
Mike
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I still dissagree
([url]http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/zookimelt2001/Mvc-43s.jpg[/url])
That doesn't look like its even ramping a 1000 yet...
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woo hoo, go mike! 100% agree with you.
with an IFS, limit front travel to safe operating angles, and lock front and rear with crawler gears. this would make a very capable rig.
hey mike, who's kick is that orange one? i love the paint work on it. is it a 2 colour chameleon? nice.
The orange one is mine... actually the black one is too, just before I painted it. :P I dont know whats in the paint. A guy who works at the bodyshop next door made a custom color for it. It does look very different in different types of light.
Mike
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That doesn't look like its even ramping a 1000 yet...
its on a 30 degree ramp though. It flexes very well. Its got a spidertrax Quarter eliptical rear and OME springs in the front. This pic was taken at Zukimelt 3 years ago. Not many rigs flexed any further than that. I only went 720 on that ramp.
Mike
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its on a 30 degree ramp though. It flexes very well. Its got a spidertrax Quarter eliptical rear and OME springs in the front. This pic was taken at Zukimelt 3 years ago. Not many rigs flexed any further than that. I only went 720 on that ramp.
Mike
After looking at the ramp more. It does seem a bit steeper than what I'm used to.
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I've seen alot of people dump it over on that ramp ;D It cool when they made there ramp steep and long enough that even the super flexy rides get nervous  (for good reason) as they approach their limit 8)
Zig
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And so the debate continues.
IFS- More clearance under the cross member by far when fitted with the same size rubber as a SAS. Takes a bit more work to get your rig off of the ground but then that is the challenge. Drives very nicely on the road compared to a SAS but only just. Generally lack strength compared to a SAS but this can be rectified ( remember, Mr Suzuki only intended the Kick to be a shopping basket with a small amount of off road ability - which is traditional with this brand ). Very good in the mud when you lift them up - clearance up the guts is a big advantage with IFS.
SAS- Easier to lift the guts of your rig off the deck ( axle relatively disconnected from the chassis, it is only the arms / springs that hold them in place ). Generally a little stronger because the manufactures also consider them to be "tough" trucks ( relative of course ). Coils work very well when set up correctly, street and off road. Leaf springs are simple and crude but they work OK.
I have built all of these on Zuks and have a pretty good understanding of what works and how well it works. My Kick on 37's actually drives very nicely on the road, I certainly do not find it at all intimadating. Just slow down a bit for the corners as it is quite tall ( 640mm from the chassis to the ground ). My 413 / Sammy ( SPOA ) drives OK but it is nowhere as good as coils, it is not as plush basically but it works great all round. My IFS Kick - 4" suspension lift, body lift, 33"s etc drives very well. In fact it is almost as good as stock.
I enjoy them all.
My 413 - 600mm up the ramp. IFS Kick- 550mm up the ramp. SAS Kick - 1050mm up the ramp.
So they all flex pretty good but the SAS Kick is the machine in the rocks.
It all depends on what you are planning on doing. Don't write off IFS because it is a very good set up with lots of potential and very good manners.
Me - I like them all, but they do have their trump cards and they are all different.
ZeusZuki.
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Whats neat in this picture and most of the other well articulated IFS Kicks I've seen, is that it shows that it is usually the rear solid axle that does the flexing and the inflexable front end which provides the good corner handling.
How much travel can one get out of the OME struts anyway, I've honestly never checked? I hear they are more than the rest.
(http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/temp/rokpil.jpg)
This bottom picture won't be a very good comparision to Mikes ride. His is a 2 door and is super modified, but I think that the picture shows a good general representation of what most modified IFS Sidekicks do compared to what most SAS Sidekicks do when it comes to comparing axle/tire flexibility.
This is what I figure to be about a ~12 degree ramp. I don't know the exact angle of the ramp, it's just a loading dock ramp in our area.
See the two dark verticle markers.
One marker shows how far the IFS rig traveled before the drivers side rear tire lifted off of the ground, the other marker shows how far the SAS truck made it before the stuffed front tire dug into the front bumper and stopped forward progress. (well before the rear tire was to lift)
I'll let you guess what marker is what.
(http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/toyaxles/flex/DCP_6915.jpg)
The IFS rig, has extended rear control arms, extended 3rd link, longer than stock shocks and lift coils in the rear. This provides excellent flex in the rear.
And in the front, it has strut spacers and lift coils. (more lift, no additional travel) I feel that this is similiar to many aftermarket lift/modifications available.
You can see other picutres of the 2, 4door kicks on this ramp here;
http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/toyaxles/flex/index.html
They both flex pretty good compared to stock. But to me, this provides the answer to the question;
"Why get rid of the IFS?"
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An ultra flexy straight axle trucklet
is way too squirrely for the road,
almost to the point of being unsafe,
at least in the sammy I drove it was,
kind of like driving a boat
Wild
Darin, sway bars help (so do properly operating shocks).
Did you hear that we had our shocks mounted upside down in the rear whilst we were in Moab? BSD shocks are directional and the 'installer' didn't see the 'this side up' marking on the side. We were riding with essentially no shocks at all while down there. When we pulled them out to swap with some Rancho shocks to see if they were any stiffer, the piston moved freely with zero resistance. Upon closer inspection, the 'this side up' was spotted.
We re-installed them and they work TONS better. Crazy huh?
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....
My Kick on 37's actually drives very nicely on the road, I certainly do not find it at all intimadating. Just slow down a bit for the corners as it is quite tall ( 640mm from the chassis to the ground ). My 413 / Sammy ( SPOA ) drives OK but it is nowhere as good as coils, it is not as plush basically but it works great all round. My IFS Kick - 4" suspension lift, body lift, 33"s etc drives very well. In fact it is almost as good as stock.
I enjoy them all.
My 413 - 600mm up the ramp. IFS Kick- 550mm up the ramp. SAS Kick - 1050mm up the ramp.
So they all flex pretty good but the SAS Kick is the machine in the rocks.
It all depends on what you are planning on doing. Don't write off IFS because it is a very good set up with lots of potential and very good manners.
Me - I like them all, but they do have their trump cards and they are all different.
ZeusZuki.
Very nice!
8)
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So the bottom line is we need to stop web wheelin so much and hit the trails. ;D ;D ;D
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To me it sounds like....
Define the job....
Get the right tools.....
both have their place.
Zag
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I dont think that is a fair compairson. That rig in the photos obviosly has too stiff of of coils in the front or too soft in the rear.
This is what it whould look like with proper spring rate.
http://www.rpm4x4.com/specs/mike-tracker-RTI.htm
Mike
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Very good Mr Hagen. So what might those spring ratings be?
The front certainly is working very well.
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Very good Mr Hagen. So what might those spring ratings be?
The front certainly is working very well.
No two rigs weigh the same so it differs per rig. As with anything ya gotta experiment.
Mike
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True- no vehicle is the same as another. But same brands with all the usual OE panels etc attached end up similar.
But I understand if you do not wish to devulge your secrets.
I have played with springs in the past and have found rear 3 door springs work quite well in the front and 5 door rear springs work well in the rear of a 3 door.
It helps soften things up a bit.
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Rear 2dr springs in the front of a 2dr? ???
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On an SAS or a Sammie.
A-armed Track/Kicks cannot
take this kind of spring mod
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i always thought the goal was to make from one point in an obstacle to the other. is it now who gets there with the most flex wins ?
i think people over look an interesting advantage to having a ifs rig is you can unbolt it return it to stock sell it, and put your goods onto another. almost always when doing a sas you end up carving out the the ifs mounting points. you go through all the hastles of fabing up a nice sas setup but if it turns out not being what you would have liked, your pretty much screwed unless you want to do more fabing. to me if your gonna do an sas go the extra mile and do it right, spend a little extra if thats what it takes.
if sas is your goal then don't settle for less than this kind of flex. by the way this is on a 30 drgree ramp.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/aawa.jpg)
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Fuck flex, I'm after strength.
Then again, I don't play in the rocks ;)
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Devulge secrets ::) Its no secret. If you want a higher spring rate you can cut a little off a coil to up the rate. Yes this will make it sit lower but you can up the height with a spacer. Ome also makes different rates of coils and dont forget the GV and Xl7 coils. Weight distribution also is a big factor. Ive always had issues with getting higher spring rate since my rig weighs in at a heafty 3500 lbs with all my gear and me in it.
Mike
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Just my opinionated opinion, if you want ground clearance, strengh and flex buy PORTAL AXLES the best of everything and the extra weight gives you a lower center of gravity.( oh ya and crazy gear reduction like your # plus 200:1 at the wheel)
If your gonna cry about the ride quality it's called 4x4 (offroad) for a reason not air bagged slush mobile on pavement (GRANDPA'S COUPE DEVILLE)
again, just my .02
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Couple probs with mogs: they're expensive, and they aren't too durable on the road, due to having the small oil capacity at the portals and the gear lube getting hot (from what I've read).
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you know everybody is missing something !!!!!
rock crawling is specialized and ther fore need a special rig but trail rigs are not really specializid they are jsut an upgrade of the original. ask yourself this what are you gonna do with your rig? if you are a crawler than go the extra mile and do it right ..SAS and coils not leaves....yes it is less expensive but for this argument do it right...long arm SAS coil locked on both ends and gear the shit out of it!!! now for the rest of us who are in the normal world of going down a trail maybe see a rock or two and drive 95% on the road IFS and clean mods maybe locked on the rear is way more than good enough......besides look a Hummer no articulation but goes almost anywhere cuz it is locked and strong (and 120,00 dollars) I am not into rocks and maybe that means I am biased but so be it . I like my ifs it goes where I want and it will go even more places soon.
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I don't know how everyone else's IFS rigs drive, but my 33's really took away from the overall streetability of the vehicle... I don't understand the argument that IFS is better on the road when you're already making it more unsafe to drive on the road. Sure, an SAS might detract from streetability even more than lifted IFS, but neither are anywhere near as roadworthy as the original configuration.
That's why I like the idea of dedicated vehicles: Trail rig and tow rig (DD) ;D
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my kick handles fine at 70-75 on the interstate. It's not stock bit it's perty close 8)
Zig
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my kick handles fine at 70-75 on the interstate. It's not stock bit it's perty close 8)
Zig
Fine and good are quite different. ;D
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Fuck flex, I'm after strength.
Then again, I don't play in the rocks ;)
not trying to talk you out of doing an sas, but if strength is what your looking for a solid front axle swap won't be the fix, because they snap too. I've got pics of sidekicks that snap d44's with 33's. if mike can do it then so can anyone else, he's provided the info.
when i first found sites on the web with pics of modded sidekicks, i had big plans to run 33's or bigger. after doing lots of reading i realized that i would never need a rig so done out. i then came up with a build plan for me, i wanted to make mine as reliable as a stock one, and as maintenance free too. i'm not going to do any rock crawling either so the big mods wouldn't work for me. so far i've managed to get closer to my goal, i just need to get a anvil, with arb lockers in the rear for sure, and maybe one up front, and some rocker gaurds. this should give me a bullet proof trail rig for hunting, fishing, and some weekend wheeling.
but i do love sas'd zuks too, it all depends on what you want from it.
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Stock SideKicks only handled fine,
I had an Audi 4000S at the same
time when I bought the Kick, hit a
corner at the "normal" speed and
about lost it when the body started
to roll and get loose in the ass end.
It's fair to say the modified kick is as
good as stock was, it's wider (wheels)
and has more height, but it also doesn't
have a front sway bar, but you learn to
adapt to the new driving style.
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I don't know how everyone else's IFS rigs drive, but my 33's really took away from the overall streetability of the vehicle... I don't understand the argument that IFS is better on the road when you're already making it more unsafe to drive on the road. Sure, an SAS might detract from streetability even more than lifted IFS, but neither are anywhere near as roadworthy as the original configuration.
That's why I like the idea of dedicated vehicles: Trail rig and tow rig (DD) ;D
This depends on how its done. The rockstar has 35s on it and drives exactly like a stocker down the road. Its a shame its so illegal ! ;D
Mike
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Mike, you got to bring RockStar to Moab
next year, I would love to see how she
does on the trails and rocks
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Rockstar doesn't count, since it only weighs like 500lbs ;)
Actually, I'd love a trail rig like that... that thing is so damn badass! I love lightweight stuff. ;D
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Are we gonna see anymore pics of Rockstar?
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Are we gonna see anymore pics of Rockstar?
This waiting a month between installments is killing me >:(