ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Alaska101 on April 05, 2004, 01:40:29 PM
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My zuki is broken and what I have got it narrowed down to is that the injector is not getting power. If I power the fuel pump and then power the injector (hotwire) it it works. Wires from the ecu to the injector are good too. Question? What other then the ecu would tell the injector not to pulse? Main relay? TPS? What?
Any Ideas would be great as a used ecu is about 450.00 in my area and I cant find one.
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The injector gets voltage from the main relay. The ECU then grounds the injector to complete the circuit and energize it to flow fuel. The amount of "on-time" , or when the injector is energized depends on inputs from the TPS,MAP and crank angle sensor as it is a speed-density based fuel map. Do you have spark? If so, I would rule out the crank angle sensor. But a bad TPS or MAP I would still think fuel would flow, and injector would be operating.
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Yes I am getting spark. Would the motor try to start if the main relay was screwed? If I pour fuel into it it runs.
So if the map and tsp are gone it sould still run? But does not the ecu turn off thr injector if you aply full gas at start-up? or an I wrong? so if the tsp was readinf wide-open it injector would close ?
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If there are two relays ? can you swap them to test it out? i.e. fuel pump would not pump when swapped? used to own a porsche had relays going out all the time and a night or on a long streach of road in the middle of nowhere, I would just swap them around till it ran!
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The ignition circuit has a failsafe system that still gives a spark even if the ECU is dead, even the injection system should operate it the CPU dies. A total failure is likely to be a very dead ECU (no power), the FSM does show a circuit fuse. There are a couple of things you could check. Pull the plug on the MAP sensor and/or TPS and check to make sure you have 5V from one of the connections. Put a meter across the tps and move the throttle up and down and test for a varying resistance. If you can get to the pins on the MAP sensor without disconnecting it then you should see 5V, 0V and something in between. The injector has its own seperate ground back to the ECU (IIRC yours is TBI?) I have an FSM for the TBI model but there are more than 100 pages on the ECU. If you need more help, PM me and I will try to assist further
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Just to start you off (the FSM way, cos I just found it ;D). Does the check engine light come on when you turn on the ignition? Can you hear the main relay switch?
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circuit fuse??? Where is this fuse? still will not run :(
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Don't worry about testing the TPS, MAP, and other stuff,
you have a bad, connection/relay or a bad ECU, you need
to figure out which it is.
did you try testing the injector for voltage ???
and the voltage at the MAP could signal a problem
with the ECU power supply.
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Check your ECM with a noed tester,its a little light that hooks to your fuel injector have someone crank it over if the light flashes its not the ecm. I sent my ecm to get rebuilt it cost me 185.00 plus the shipping down there it was back with in the week plus it comes with a 18 month warranty. check out www.avproecm.com good luck
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Alaska101,
I had the same problem you're describing and it turned out to be the ECM. The relays (under the dash, left of steering wheel) would click like crazy when I tried to start it. If I poured gas in the throttle mine would start too.
If yours is the ECM, you might want try having the capacitors replaced by a local electronics shop. This often fixes the problem and should cost less than $40.
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I have a spare '91 Sidekick ECM from an automatic...
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Still at a loss on this ecu >:(
Got all the caps changed still will not run!
I am still working ao the wiring Hope this id it!!
Anyone have a blueprint of the circiut board on a 91 tbi?
This would help alot!
Thanx if you do e-mail it to Karwin|removethispart|@sasktel.net
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Here is what I changed in RED!
What are these??? (White)
(http://www.kielbassa.com/pictures/cb 001.jpg)
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Its a bit different to the one I have apart at the moment. I would guess they are the output drivers, probably FETs.
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Thanx But what are FET's???
Also I relpaced all the caps still no Vroom :'(
Anyone have anyother ideas?
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FETs are a high power transistor, designed
to ground the injector and make it fire.
Wild
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Have you checked that 5V is present at the MAP sensor? I have heard of the regulators failing on some ECUs. The problem could also be that FET that Wildgoody mentioned. The FETS are marked 2422 IIRC but I haven't been able to find any data for them (or much else thats inside the stock ECU  :(). I did see something on the net that said that someone had replaced one with a TIP3055, but that is a conventional bipolar transistor and I wouldn't expect it to last very long driving an injector. Any general purpose FET in the correct case should do the job but it would have to be of the type that includes a freewheeling diode. I am plannning on using an Infineon BTS 133 which is an automotive quality part and has (to all intents and purposes) the same pinout as a TIP3055
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Some of the FET's are green and some are black are they the same? or which one should I change?
Or how do you test them???
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Hay Rhinoman anyideas where to get the fet's???
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Any GOOD electronics supply can help, or
you could order from Digi-Key.com part #
IRFIZ34N-ND this is the part in the MegaSquirt
EFI computer I built, I don't know if it is
compatable with the Zuke Computer but
it does have the capacity for the Amps.
Good Luck,
Wild
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Hay Rhinoman anyideas where to get the fet's???
My ECU has 4 black devices which are marked 2422? and one green device. I haven't investigated the green one yet. I have no idea where to get the stock FETS. Giving it some more thought I was probably wrong about using any general purpose FET. The reason I don't use the IRFIZ34N-ND that Megasquirt use is because it needs additional circuitry to cope with the back emf from the injector (I think they call it the flyback board) when used with low impedance injectors like the ones on the Zuk. I think the Infineon device will be OK but I haven't done any endurance testing yet. The Infineon device is available from Farnell in the UK, they are also in the US so try them:
 http://www.farnell.com
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That is true, however the IRFIZ34N-ND
will handle 1 low Ohm injector (called lowZ)
so it would work with the TBI in this case,
it will actually take 2 lowZ injectors, but
it needs serious cooling so it won't fry
Wild
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Guy's would this workhttp://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfiz44g.pdf in place of the IRFIZ44G-ND as that part is back-ordered about three mth's. I taked to diyi-key tech and they said ok
As for the heat problem what if I mounted a fan (ie computer fan) to blow in the case and cool it I know I would have to vent the case too.
Sounds Good ???
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It just needs to be mounted to the case to keep
it cool, fan and venting is not needed, and yes
I think the replacement would be fine.
Wild
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Its been a while since I looked at the MS stuff, if it can handle one injector OK then go for it. In the stock case it is mounted on a heatsink bar so it should be OK
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I've dragged this thread up from the grave cos I found some more information while I was doing something else, it may be of some help to someone else if they're doing a search for info.
The stock transistor is a 2SD2422 this is a High Power Darlington Transistor Pair. I wonder if the IRF FET worked as MS uses a FET driver to operate the IRFIZ34N-ND (FETs are Voltage driven, Darlingtons are current driven). The datasheet for the IRF device shows that it may not get enough volts from a stock TTL output to drive it. I did find an equivalent device listed as a 2SD1415, a datasheet for this is available so it might be possible to locate a more readily available device, alternatively the BTS133 FET I suggested originally may well work as it needs a much lower drive voltage. The 2SB1335A device used for the 5V is a PNP power transistor.
Edit: I just noticed the original date, time flies eh?
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did anyone find out what it was cause last night i let my buddy drive my sammie and he sunk it up the the top of the steering wheel and not the injector isnt opening i checked the pump all the way up to the throtle body and its getting fuel o this is a 1994 suzuki samurai by the way but the injector is not letting the fuel in but i was wondering if the tracker 8v ecu would work on it because i heard about the resistor taking a crap if it got hot then wet or something like that
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You should start by drying out the ECU and see if it will work,
you can bake it at low heat in the oven, about 200* should
do for a few hours
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You'll probably need to pull the ECU apart and clean the PCB. I had one come to me that was flooded, the tin on the component legs rusted and shorted the pins out. That was the only ECU I've not been able to repair. The 5V regulator blew and dumped 12V on all the 5V components.
In the pic you can see the areas that are really badly affected:
(http://www.btinternet.com/~j_holland/images/daves01.jpg)
For those with long memories, this was the ECU from Dave Jones' SuperZuki
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well this is my daily driver right now and i have to use it everyday so i was going to just put a new ecm in it but i dont know if the tracker is the same or not
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did anyone find out what it was cause last night i let my buddy drive my sammie and he sunk it up the the top of the steering wheel and not the injector isnt opening i checked the pump all the way up to the throtle body and its getting fuel o this is a 1994 suzuki samurai by the way but the injector is not letting the fuel in but i was wondering if the tracker 8v ecu would work on it because i heard about the resistor taking a crap if it got hot then wet or something like that
A trackick ECM will not work in a samurai.
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has anyone tryied it? and what are my options to fix this computer problem? :(
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has anyone tryied it? and what are my options to fix this computer problem? :(
The pinouts are different on the ECMs.
Yes, there are some people that have tried it (that didn't know any better). It didn't work.
At some point...when I am feeling lucky....I am going to work on trying to get a trackick ECM to run samurai EFI. At the very least, I know that wires will have to be swapped around in the ECM connectors. It has been awhile since I have looked into it, but it seems like there are some other issues that may take some time to figure out to get around.
Your options are either see about getting the ECM repaired, or find a new ECM. But first, I would figure out if it is even an ECM problem. Sinking a samurai (or any vehicle) can cause more issues that just killing an ECM.
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SuperZuki! I loved that thing. :)
Ugly ECU though.
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At some point...when I am feeling lucky....I am going to work on trying to get a trackick ECM to run samurai EFI. At the very least, I know that wires will have to be swapped around in the ECM connectors. It has been awhile since I have looked into it, but it seems like there are some other issues that may take some time to figure out to get around.
I have a Sammy ECU to look at at some point, it does look very similar to some of the 1.6 8V variants.
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well this is my daily driver right now and i have to use it everyday so i was going to just put a new ecm in it but i dont know if the tracker is the same or not
http://www.kick-fix.com/ECU/ECU.html (http://www.kick-fix.com/ECU/ECU.html)
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Seven years and still going - the thread that wouldn't die ;D ;D ;D ;D