ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Twan013 on August 06, 2005, 11:16:19 PM
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Hey guys, i've looked around the forums, maybe not hard or long enough... but i was wondering which i should go with.. I've seen a minispool somewhere that can fit either a samurai or a trackick.. i was wondering if i should go with that, a lock-rite, or a limited slip... i'm planning on running 235/75's or 30x9.5's... its gonna be my daily driver, but also spend a lot of time offroad (like weekends and stuff)... types of offroading is whatever i can find... locally, mostly mudding... i know that about the best i can get is dual ARB lockers, but that just ain't gonna happen... just one is too much $$ for me, and i don't want to have to add an air compressor or anything like that... I am willing, however, to have something in both diffs... what is the best combo for what i have planned, and within my budget (i don't want to weld the rear diff shut in case i want to change later or something)
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ok, from what i've read in the other thread, you have just got yourself a tracker.
depending on what you are willing to spend on traction aids, maybe a spool or auto locker is the way to go. everyone wants ARBs, but still want to keep their arms and legs at the same time. so it sorta goes something like this.....
LSDs are very expensive and do not offer 100% lock up of both left and right axles. the only good thing is, they do provide more traction than a normal open diff, and are pretty much un-noticable when driving on road. eg: a daily driver. LSDs do have some sort of tuning ability, as in, how much slack it has. most on road race cars have LSDs, and most have then set up to achieve almost 100% lock up. but you might as well go ARBs with the money you spend on LSDs.
Spools are great if you want good predictability when dail driving and on wet roads, as it is 100% locked, and will not unlock. Spools are reasonably cheap, and another good thing about them is, if you dont like it, you can take it out and sell it, and be back on a normal open diff. this is opposed to WELDING the centre. this is the same as a spool, but will not be reversable. i believe spools are about $99 in the states, and welding is almost free, depending on how good you buddy can weld. (or yourself)
Tyre wear is increased, but most will say its minimal and not noticable.
Auto lockers such as a lock right, are a good compromise. when they lock up, it is 100%, and when they unlock, they unlock 100% also. the lock rights work on a mechanical cam type ramp system, which, when loaded with force or torque, push outwards the 2 centre drive plates over the side gears and lock both axles together. i believe this is good when fitted to a daily driver, as you can choose to let it unlock on the pavement, and increase tyre life, or keep it locked and have slightly more tyre wear as a spool would.
with the auto lockers, obviously you dont have control over when it will lock and unlock, compared to the selectable ARBS, and with that, you will need to adjust your driving style slightly. there will be some funny noises and jerks and so on at first, but you quickly get over it and enjoy what it has to offer. also, on road and slippery surfaces, as in ice, or rain, the auto locker become quite hard to predict, and you may find yourself in a 180* situation. but its all fun.
i run a lock right in the rear of my vit, and i love it. i started off with 235s, then went to 31"s. i had no problems with the locker, or road manners for that. i am now on 33"s.
you also mentioned you wanted to lock front and rear. some people i know spool the rear, or weld, and use a lock right in the front. with the front fully locked with a spool or welded, steering may become heavier, and your turning circle will increase. many overcome this by unlocking either one or both front free wheeling hubs. also, if you plan to wheel in mostly mud and so on, a fully locked front will decrease the ability to steer they way you plan, and may tram track more.
you can use a few combos to lock front and rear, or you can just weld front and rear and be fully locked for almost nothing out of pocket.
hope this helps.
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Ditto
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i don't necessarily HAVE to have front and read locked... if just the rear is sufficient enough, then that's just a little extra money to spend on something else, ya know? i might get a spool in the rear, heavy duty axles, and be done with it.. if i can just remember that website that i found... they had minispools (are these any different than regular spools?) for only $50... i definately don't want to weld because of the simple fact that i might want to upgrade later....
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ok, my bad, sorry. Spools, and mini-spools are different, mini spools replace all the spider and side gears inside the diff carrier/centre, and a normal full spool replaces the whole centre, in which the axles will fit into and the crown wheel bolt to.
if i could get mini spools for as cheap as you guys can, i would have gotten one in the rear of my vit. i know with myself, $$$ is a bit of a problem, and when it comes to stuff like this, you only want to do it once and be done with it.
maybe a lock-right in the front? and a steel diff and carrier too. it also needs a sammy front centre with some mods to fit.
i think any locker in the rear helps heaps than having none at all.
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I have a loc-rite in the rear, love it.
I want the ARB for the front, but $$
so I started thinking about a Limited
Slip for the front, more traction, and
being able to turn seems like a nice
feature ;D
Wild
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Depends on the type of terrain you drive most often
-If only rocks then locked front and rear
-If rocks and mud then LSD front ,Lockright rear
-If only mud then the previous option is ok but maybe its better to use LSD's front-rear
For me that I m 70-30 mud-rocks, I use an LSD 75% front and a Detroit EZ on the rear.
In mud terrain a lockright on the front will make turning almost impossible.....
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Something else to think about :-[
You can always lead the rear - basically the lead jams the side gears and spider gears up, it does work.
I prefer a lock rite ( or similar ) in the rear for a daily driver. I also like running a lock rite in the front but with the 2Wd option in the T case. This is very handy when you need to have the front freewheeling over some easy terrain. Then just bang it into 4Wd again when things get tough :o
This works for me ;D and I am not made of $$$ either, so it is a practical solution.
Over here in NZ we do a lot of mud and old forestry roads. Some of these roads have BIG wash outs and drop offs so you need things locked up when taking on these challenges. Other times it is just cruising through native bush trails and this is where 2WD low is good.
Hope this helps ;).
Zeus
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You guys with the loc-rites front and rear ever try letting more air out of your front tires than your rear? letting the rear tires push your fronts more so the lockers will let you steer a little better.
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I've got a mini-spool rear and lockrite front ...
In 2wd (aka street) the mini-spool will chirp occasionally, but not a big deal. (And obviously the front locker has no effect)
On the trail, never a problem stearing with the front locked. In fact I only hear it click occasionally. You can feel the resistance until a front wheel slips, and sometimes the spool wants to push the front forward, but as long as it can get loose, it corners very well. Only time steering was at all tough was on a rock pile at a playday, and that was just cuz one front had got wedged. (I will add I have powe3r steering in my tracker, and that DOES help).
Locked front/rear is awesome offroad. The thing is a mountain goat when it comes to climbing. Basically it's unstoppable. I just wish I had some more breakover angle, but as long as 2 wheels are on the ground, I can scrape over just about everything.
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I have locrights front and rear and haven't had any steering problems offroad. On road, the rear locker will cherp a little and to the standard snap, crakel, and pop. Nothing major. Overall, it is great traction and really climbs well, especially when you have the lower t-case gears too ;D
Good luck
Aaron
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On the other hand I ve seen a truck locked with lockrights front and rear and as it was trying to climb to a muddy slope,both lockers were engaged,all 4 wheels started spinning,the guy couldnt let the throttle cause the slope was steep,the truck started moving sideways but it stoped at 45 degrees before getting parallel to the slope and roll over.
I personally never had a lockright on the front ,but I ve seen than it can be dangerous in muddy terrain and especially steep slopes.On rocky terrain ,no problem ,the truck could go anywhere,it was unstopanle.But on very mud terrain with slopes what I saw made me stay away from puting automatic locker on the front.
If you are sure about what you re talking about,and convince me,then you will make me happy cause I wil try it.
Till now I ve seen trucks with twin LSDs pass through mud holes and slopes where locked trucks started digging,slipping and finally getting stuck.Again I repeat on dry or rocky terrain ,locked trucks are unstopable.
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In the PNW (pacific northwest of the USA), the trails are generally tight and steep forest. On the west side of the cascades, it's a rain forest, so generally wet, some mud mixed with rocks. On the east side of the cascades, it get drier, so more loose dry rocks.
My experience is mostly in the "wet" forest, and there's plenty of muddy (or icy) slopes. I've not been crossed up on a climb, but when my front was open, I've had some situations where it got scary cuz I only had 3 on the ground (tilted back at 35-45), and couldn't get traction on both rears to make the step. That was the experience that made me plop $$$ for a front lock.
IMO, you get crossed up on a climb, you're probably going to roll, and it doesn't matter what "lock" (if any) you have up front.
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You may be misunderstanding what I said ( or maybe I said it wrong ??? ).
I will never hesitate to fit lockers front and rear - they are just too good ;D
Muddy climbs and side slopes are all the same locked or not. You just have to think a bit more about what you are doing. As mentioned, getting some serious air under a front and loseing traction on a slope is VERY frightening - a front locker stops this and keeps you going, but only experience will get you through safely no matter what.
Zuks have a big advantage in the mud - they are light and do not dig in as bad as heavy rigs - just point it in the right direction and nail it, and keep it nailed :o
Power steering is a big help too. I have been running a sammy without it and this can be real hard work sometimes :P. But 2Wd makes it real easy when you are just tootling down a trail ( and it takes the strain off of the drive train - why bind her up when you don't have to ).
Anyway I am building up a 5 door Kick now and am soooooo looking forward to the extra luxuries even if I do sacrifice some clearance under the guts. I guess I will have to pick my lines a bit more carefully ;)
Locked - Not Stock, that is the way to go!!!! 8)
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O.k it seems that all of you that have a lockright on the front are happy with it.I dont like ARB's.I am hapy too with my rear EZ locker(same thing).Can someone explain to me what happens when I m in deep mud going straight and there's a 180 degree turn in front of me? How will the front locker behave?
As far as I can imagine,the front wheels will be turned ,the locker engaged both front and rear,the rear wheels-locker will push forward and the front wheels -locked will just be spinning altough turned ,thus making the truck going straight.I ve seen that many times.Now either the driver was doing something wrong or I didnt understand what really went wrong.
By the way ,how does a front lockright behave in sand ,mainly on turns ?
Another problem I can imagine is the following:
I m driving on a wet slippery road (or with thin ice) and the rear locker makes the rear end to start fishtailing...I have to engage 4WD-High.If I have a front lockright also,how the truck will behave again on turns ?
The LSD is behaving very good and the trucks behavior is very predictable.
I m not saying all the above to prove you wrong but to see if you re right ,so this will make me more eager to replace my front 75% LSD with a lockright.Cause no matter what an LSD is not a locker... :)
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GRVIT
The thing is a lockrite etc will release when you button off - an ARB will not. This frees up the axles for a bit and lets everything do what you want it to do.
If you are in mud and want to turn then just button off a little and turn the wheel then accelerate a little to lock everything up and up you go. Even if you keep the gas on and turn the locker will have some give and let you go. The thing is though, when you are locked front and rear and are running good rubber ( sharp edges and plenty of tread depth ) then you can slow things down a notch from the usual frantic pace. the guys running straight on are probably using ARB's. A friend of mine runs a trail truck with ARB's fr & Rr. He has to turn the front off to make a sharp turn or the rig just runs on. To turn an ARB off you really need to stop - this is not good. Me I just get off the gas a little but do not have to stop.
In sand i do not have any problems - remember they disengage when you do not have the boot up it.
If you need 4WD because of ice then you are going Sloooooooow any way so I do not see any problems.
Remember: You do not fit lockers to go fast. You fit them to slow things down and drive in a more calculated way. If you have not been wheeling for long then you will never understand.
There comes a time in every wheelers life when you either do three things:
1) You decide to go extreme and don't care about drive train and panel damage. >:(
2) You get sick of breaking stuff all the time because you have to thrash your rig to go everywhere :-\. This is when you gear and lock em up ;D.
3) You just throw it all in and take up ballet :-X
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I ve been wheeling with the Detroit on the rear the last two years.I dont drive fast not on the road,neither off road.The only fear I have about puting a locker on the front is the image of me needing to get away from a mud hole in a turn with side slope,giving throttle to get away but the truck heads on its way due to the front locker.Nothing else.
I wouldnt change my rear locker,I love it.Its just the front (which I would really like to have and which might affect steering control) that worries me.And from what I ve seen till now ,it made me think that auto lockers on the front can be somehow dangerous.Thats all.
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I've got the Lock-right's both front and rear also GRVIT.
And yes I've managed to do all of those things that you've been worried about to some degree or another. However like the others have said just a slight easing of the go peddle will release the front locker and since I learned that there's been no problems.
I will say this though, before I added the power stearing, I dreaded switching into 4lo. unless I was in the mud or sand it was a beast to try to control. At one time I desided that I was going to go up a local hill called (Oddly enough) the hill of no return. It was very steep, covered with very large holes and consited of a combinatio of pea gravel and bowling ball to volkswagon sized rocks, the majority of them loose. Well I made the hill, but by the time I was at the top all of my fingers and both palms were bloody from where they had blistered and broke.
I think that's why it's called the hilll of no return, you either damage your vehicle or your nerves enough by the time you get to the top, you never want to try it again.
Utah.
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Running ARB's front and rear in my SWB vit. To turn a very sharp corner, I turn the front off, move the steering a little left/right (this unlocks the locker) then turn. easy no stopping :)
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well....what the h..... There is only one way to learn how it is with a front lockright....
I ll get one for the front and then after some use,I ll be back here to discuss about it .... ;)
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That is the spirit GRVIT. I am sure you will not be disappointed. I liked one with out power steering so you are about to find a new love :-*
Go ahead and thank us all later ;D
Zeus.
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hope so :)