ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: SNAFU on September 14, 2005, 05:44:59 PM
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I come from a road racing background and I would like to know why you would not want all four wheels on the ground as much as possible, instead of hanging out in space when off roading. Anyone care to fill me in?
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not an expert on the subject, but it depend on the wheeling your doing. outside of heavy rock crawling ifs can do everything else as good or better in some cases. everybody has their opinion. one thing is for sure though, if you build an ifs rig and end up not liking it, you can always convert to sas. although if you start out sas, and you end up not liking that, you can't go back. so best advise is know what type of wheeling you want to do, then read, and ask questions you'll get all the help you need right here.
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I come from a road racing background and I would like to know why you would not want all four wheels on the ground as much as possible, instead of hanging out in space when off roading. Anyone care to fill me in?
Stability is even more important than keeping all 4 wheels on the ground. I dont think a strait axle is better, I do think they are simpler to go extreme with. That does not make it better. That being said I dont dislike straight axle rigs, I just prefer IFS. I might not want Ifs on a full size but I like how nimble trackicks are with IFS.
Mike
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First you need to define "better"
IFS rigs tend to pick up a wheel
more often when getting off camber,
not a bad thing, it's just one of the things
an IFS rig does.
I watched some guys driving sammys down
a boulder strewn road, and they were getting
thrown back and forth, my Kick was "doing it's thing"
with the IFS taking most of the rough ride
Wild
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pressure on tires, straight axles when one side goes up other goes down.
ifs can go in two different directions with out one effecting the other.
buy one of each see which one you like better.
now if I can just convince the wife to let me have a 3rd vehicle.
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As posted earlier, it depends on your preference.
Solid axles are generally stronger and flex better in rocks/technical trail riding, but IFS can be made strong and flexy (just take a look at Mike's rig). One of the biggest downsides to a solid axle is the on-road ride quality, even when using sway bars. IFS is just tons better if you're driving your rig on the road.
Oh yeah, IFS generally costs more to build up nice and strong than a solid axle does.
Again, it all boils down to what you want to do with your truck. Niether is better than the other in every aspect. :)
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i will let you know how i find my live axle i am just about to finish it this saturday morning as i have to be at a club weekend saturday afternoon.
I know for sure my road handling is going to be a lot worse now im running a live axle on coils. but the amount of flex i have gained equals my rear setup, I have had to limit it.
My truck isnt my daily driver so having lots of body and bump steer isnt going to worry me to much. if my truck was my daily driver i would have probably stayed with IFS.
a pic from a couple of weeks ago.
(http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL617/2393799/8088200/108718642.jpg)
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I come from a road racing background and I would like to know why you would not want all four wheels on the ground as much as possible, instead of hanging out in space when off roading. Anyone care to fill me in?
Where'd you get the idea that an SFS setup means you'd be hanging out in space more often than IFS?
Actually the reverse is true. More flex means more tires on the ground at all times.
IFS:
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/050319Moab/goldenspike/DCP_7206.JPG)
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/050319Moab/goldenspike/DCP_7209.JPG)
SFS:
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/050319Moab/goldenspike/DCP_7200.JPG)
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/050319Moab/goldenspike/DCP_7212.JPG)
It all depends on the wheeling you're doing. If you're mudding or high speed desert racing, or just moderate logging roads, then yes, IFS is fine. If you're a rock crawler, or you need to be in areas where flex is involved, SFS is the way to go.
Sure, you can make an IFS perform close to an SFS suspension, and an SFS perform close to an IFS suspension, money is the only limiting factor.
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Cool pics, I know those guys (and gals ;D )
Zig
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Cool pics, I know those guys (and gals ;D )
My Kick, it looks so tiny compared to the others :o
Zig
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;D
I haven't been surfing on here too much lately.. I don't think I even have any wheeling pics or have done any "wheeling" in my truck since it's been camoed. I've got a serious itch to, though.
Just been workin' and playing PC games. haha..
:)
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;D
I haven't been surfing on here too much lately.. I don't think I even have any wheeling pics or have done any "wheeling" in my truck since it's been camoed. I've got a serious itch to, though.
Just been workin' and playing PC games. haha..
:)
Dont feel bad, I bow-tied a tie rod on my last trip and have been to lazy to fix it. :P
Zig
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I come from a road racing background and I would like to know why you would not want all four wheels on the ground as much as possible, instead of hanging out in space when off roading. Anyone care to fill me in?
Where'd you get the idea that an SFS setup means you'd be hanging out in space more often than IFS?
Actually the reverse is true. More flex means more tires on the ground at all times.
Simple, an independent suspension allows both wheels to follow the road contours independently, instead of being forced to do the opposite of what the wheel on the other side is doing. Looking at pics of SFS Samis when one wheel is down in a crevice the other is way up in the air, whereas if it had an IFS the wheel not in the crevice would be reaching downward trying to get to something for traction, and will contact the other side of the crevice and get traction sooner than an SFS as the vehicle moves forward. I don't see how you can say a SFS has more "flex" than an independent suspension.ÂÂ
From your pictures it does look as though some of the vehicles have much more suspension travel than the others (is that a kick with a SFS at the bottom?). Maybe we are at odds on terminology (flex vs what I call travel). Maybe its easier to get a lot of travel out of a SFS?
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The primary reason an SFS will "flex" better is that as one wheel is compressed, it applies a force on the oposite to extend. With IFS, a wheel on a bump will not interact with the opposite wheel (hence independent), and so that oposite wheel is more likely to raise into the air.
In those first 2 pics of heathers, you can see that the RHS tire is hanging in the air (there is no "force" trying to cause it to extend downward other than the weight of the tire. In the SFS pics, the RHS whell is being forced down into the crevice and more likely to grab some traction .
Even travel wouldn't help the crack crossing above for IFS rigs much. There just isn't the needed forces to get that pik'd tire into the crack. (and travel is more difficult to achieve with an IFS on these things, it can be done, but not as easily as with a solid front axel.)
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A comment regarding the pic from Heather.
We came up behind a group of much larger SAS rigs crossing when we came through the crack. And all of the Kicks, mostly IFS walked right through the exact lines the much larger SAS rigs took ;D With some of them having trouble :o
Zig
And the ol-IFS kept them on the ground prety good 8)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/Raj3 030s.jpg)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/Raj3 031s.jpg)
We were trying to get a good 3 wheel line for a pick :P
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When I'm cruising the mall in my sammie I don't think I would notice the difference with ifs on the speed bumps would I? ;D
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Actually that is where it shines. You can hit the speedbumps in the local mall parking lot much faster with in IFS set up and 8-10PSI in your 33's ;D It's really fun if the ricer/low rider you are racing id not paying attention and he too hits the speed bump at 40 mph ;D
Zig
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Ya I like to pull the front tires off the ground on them, thats alot of fun also ;D
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A comment regarding the pic from Heather.
We came up behind a group of much larger SAS rigs crossing when we came through the crack. And all of the Kicks, mostly IFS walked right through the exact lines the much larger SAS rigs took ;D With some of them having trouble :o
Zig
And the ol-IFS kept them on the ground prety good 8)
We were trying to get a good 3 wheel line for a pick :P
Nice pics. :)
Yah, I don't have ANYTHING against IFS rigs. A lot of you guys can cruise thorugh anything that an SFS can. It's all about the driver.
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The primary reason an SFS will "flex" better is that as one wheel is compressed, it applies a force on the oposite to extend. With IFS, a wheel on a bump will not interact with the opposite wheel (hence independent), and so that oposite wheel is more likely to raise into the air.
In those first 2 pics of heathers, you can see that the RHS tire is hanging in the air (there is no "force" trying to cause it to extend downward other than the weight of the tire. In the SFS pics, the RHS whell is being forced down into the crevice and more likely to grab some traction .
Even travel wouldn't help the crack crossing above for IFS rigs much. There just isn't the needed forces to get that pik'd tire into the crack. (and travel is more difficult to achieve with an IFS on these things, it can be done, but not as easily as with a solid front axel.)
Good post.
Another thing here to note is about suspension travel. These IFS rigs just don't have the travel. I think they're what, 3-4" down and 3-4" up? So about 8" of travel? (with the exception of Mike's rig) And you're limited by CV angles. SFS is only limited by the amount of suspension droop. I think I've got about 24" or more of suspension travel in the front. I'll have to measure sometime. ;)
Plus, an IFS keeps the center differential closer to the ground in most cases. Because the arms move independantly, the center differential stays put. On a solid axle suspension, the differential is part of the axle, therefore, when one tire is lifted, the differential is lifted as well.
couple more pics:
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/040626CarnageCanyon/DCP_6168.jpg)
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/040626CarnageCanyon/DCP_6161.jpg)
(http://www.granitepath.com/photos/040626CarnageCanyon/DCP_6185.jpg)
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(is that a kick with a SFS at the bottom?).
Yep, mine. (it's in my sig too.)
But it looks like this now:
(http://www.granitepath.com/~kd7hcg/pictures/camo/DCP_7576.jpg)
;D
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A comment regarding the pic from Heather.
We came up behind a group of much larger SAS rigs crossing when we came through the crack. And all of the Kicks, mostly IFS walked right through the exact lines the much larger SAS rigs took ;D With some of them having trouble :o
Zig
And the ol-IFS kept them on the ground prety good 8)
We were trying to get a good 3 wheel line for a pick :P
Nice pics. :)
Yah, I don't have ANYTHING against IFS rigs. A lot of you guys can cruise thorugh anything that an SFS can. It's all about the driver.
Yea that was basically my point 8) Like it was stated above, it all depends on how you drive and what you are driving through, over, or around ;)
Zig
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(http://www.granitepath.com/~kd7hcg/pictures/camo/DCP_7576.jpg)
Awesome truck!!
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yea, it's ok for a SAS ;D
j/k
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yea, it's ok for a SAS ;D
j/k
Yeah, it's "OK".
It would be "awesome" with coils. Maybe in the next revision. LOL.
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There is another place IFS shines, in mud, deep mud. with IFS you can see the center section of the diff up out of the way and not needing to come down when the wheels do.
For instance, when in a set of deep ruts(like some from 44 inch tires) you can drag the skid plate on the ruts and let the A arms droop all the way down so they can stay on the ground getting traction.
I the same situation, a solid axle rig would drag the center of the axle on the rut and the tires would be left hanging in the air, not getting any traction.
i'm not sure if i expladed this well enough, if i didn't tell me and i'll go for round two. ;)
stu
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Finally another road racer.....I am not alone!
But what I have learned since getting Zuked is that IFS/SAS is really a path you chose to follow. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages (sorta like a religion). Believers chose their path in the 4X4 world and follow it.
I will say I can see how the SAS is easier to build in most ways, but myself (probly from my road race background) lean to the IFS side.
Maybe someday when Buicks and Money are not issues I'll build a 4 wheel indenpendent off roader....till then I'll be an IFS guy and admire the hard work and ingeniuty the SAS guys devote to their chosen path.
Zag
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hey
Finally another road racer.....I am not alone!
But what I have learned since getting Zuked is that IFS/SAS is really a path you chose to follow. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages (sorta like a religion). Believers chose their path in the 4X4 world and follow it.
I will say I can see how the SAS is easier to build in most ways, but myself (probly from my road race background) lean to the IFS side.
Maybe someday when Buicks and Money are not issues I'll build a 4 wheel indenpendent off roader....till then I'll be an IFS guy and admire the hard work and ingeniuty the SAS guys devote to their chosen path.
Zag
i'm begging to think zag ,that your really starting to love that buick.. and just cant come to terms and let it go home to it's owner...lol
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yooooouuuu funnie
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dont forget, ifs lighter, better since most of us only have a 1.6. I noticed when I wheel, extra person (180#) make a big difference as far as power needed. With two extra people, she just plain bogs all the time.
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I've been following these threads for a while now, and I've heard lots of comments that both can be built up to have specific strengths. What can you do to improve an IFS setup?
Nevermind, I did a search and found out myself :)