ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Fity on October 04, 2005, 11:21:48 PM
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Does anyone know the VE (Volumetric efficiency) of a Suzuki 1.6l 16v single cam head? I am trying to do some calculations for a up coming supercharger project. Or is there an easy way to calculate it?
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Ummm, if you tell us what volumetric efficiency is we'll tell you everything we know about it  ;D
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You need to clarify what you mean. The VE is relative to how much air the engine as a whole can flow (head, cams exhausts etc...). Its a measure of how much air ends up in the cylinder compared to its size. For example a 200cc cylinder with a max. VE of 50% will end up with 100cc of air in it, but it changes with rpm. Do you mean the flowrate of the head? Wildgoody or Zaggy if you can contact them may have some figures.
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I'll have to dig in, I just can't remember
the figures, but the VE can be figured
from the HP output and Displacement of
an engine.
The VE of the 1.6L 8V engine, is lower than
the 16V engine, and it's basicly the head that
improves it.
I'll see what I can get for VE
BTW what SC are you working with ???
I saw a 3800 SSE Pontiac with a SC on top,
I was tempted to get it, but I need to finish
my new engine first, still they only wanted
$80 for it :'( Why must I have so many things
that want my $$
Wild
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OK, best I can get right now is
Overhead cam twin valve 65% to 80%,
four valves per cylinder 75% to 90%.
BTW, a Turbo or SC makes a huge difference,
and the N/A VE will change by 50-60% with them
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Your VE is x. Any improvement to pack more air/fuel mix is x+. 2 intake valves allow the mix to arrive more efficiently (bigger holes/lower resistance). Turbo/Super pack it in, increasing the efficiency. / Head flowing work at given valve(s) opening |removethispart|@x Kpa to increase mass flow is one of the cheapest Kw/Hp gains there is. Remember, smooth is not always better.
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Six.
I'm sure that must be the right answer.
If you put six drunks in the back of a 4-door sidekick, you have an 80% chance of getting them home without any of them puking. The 80% "break-point" of course is the key.
If you drop it to 5, you have a 95% chance, but you also have to make two trips.
If you raise it to 7, it drops to just 35% chance - clearly not worth it.
Of course, if you've got six drunks in the back, and ONE of them hurls, more than likely ALL of them will, because of the close quarters. This is the reason there are drain-plugs in the body.
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Thanks Wildgoody. :) I was guessing around 70%.
I am going to use a SC14 (Toyota 1GGZE) as I bought it years ago for the job and now 3 zooks later I am finally going to use it. :)
From what I have calculated the crank to SC ratio will be around 0.76:1 knowing that the swept volume of the SC14 is 1.4l and the engine capacity is 1.6l using this formula.
((14.7+Boost) / 14.7) x (engine litres / 2)) / Supercharger Size litres = Theoretical Pulley Ratio
((14.7+5psi) / 14.7) x (1.6litres/2)) / 1.4litres = 0.76:1
This doesn't take into account for the 10 - 25% loss with VE. It's a good starting point.
I have also read that for every 10psi boost your double the horse power as a rule of thumb, not allowing for inefficiencies and power used to rotate the SC at 10 psi.
I am aiming for 5-7psi giving me up to 50% more HP. ;D
Any thoughts on my calcs? ???
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I am aiming for 5-7psi giving me up to 50% more HP.
That's about right, I just glossed over your
math, but it seems you have a good working
knowlege of what you got going.
Keep in mind, a street going SuperCharger is
not able to boost more than 5-7 PSI and maintain
reliability, over that the rotors get too hot and
life is shorter than you would like.
In contrast a TurboCharger can make 5 to 20 PSI
and remain reliable, tho I don't recommend anything
over 15 PSI, once you get over 15 PSI things get
a little squirrelly, best to keep around 10 max for a
street engine, with an adjustable waste gate for
stomping on ricers
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I liked Bobzuki's answer better...ROFL ::)
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I am thinking of water / Metho injection pre SC. This should keep the SC temp down and also compustion temps. I have read of many people using this method with the Toyota SC with great benefits, it makes the SC last longer. They even inject fuel and even 100% water through the SC without any detrimental effects. Once I get it all going, then I may look an intercooler as well.
The SC14 SC comes off a 2l engine and gives 5psi boost, so on my 1.6l it will be spinning slower and doing the same, so reliabilty shouldn't be an issue......well not to much. ;)
Bobzuki were you in the front or back seat of the kick? :P
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I was wondering how he got 6 people
into the back of the 4 door ???
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According to my old Power Mechanics and technology book.......
Flathead........................................ .52
Non Cross flow 2 valve.................. .62
Cross flow 2 valve......................... .67
Cross Flow 4 valve........................ .74
This is pretty old stuff and quite genric, hope it helps.
As far as power outputs.......old racing rule of thumb
(on equally prepared engines)
Normally aspirated             1.0Xhp
1/2 atmosphere boost (7.4psi)   1.5Xhp
1 atmosphere boost  (14.8psi)   2.0Xhp
Made sense to me
etc.........but I bow to Wilds experience...real world beats rule of thumb
Zag
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We all know X size engine produces Y HP,
now there has to be a simple way to say
a 1.6L engine produces 80 HP, therefore
the VE for that engine is 70% or some such
other # that makes sence
In relation the 16V engine produces 95HP
therfore the VE is higher, say 80%
These VE #s were pulled out of thin air, and
are in no way meant to be used as real figures
Wild
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We all know X size engine produces Y HP,
now there has to be a simple way to say
a 1.6L engine produces 80 HP, therefore
the VE for that engine is 70% or some such
other # that makes sence
Wandering off thread for a moment but I have that defined as specific power (the power produced per piston area). Is that definition of VE a US thing? Sometimes i get a little confused here ???
Edit: Now you've got me thinking that it probably works out pretty much the same as the only real difference is rpm. Darn, I'm going to have to work it out now.
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Volumetric efficiency is not an absolute to horsepower......
Merely a way of measuring the effeciency of the engine as an air pump.
And it's not that long ago that engineers and mathmeticians didn't think you could exceed
a VE of one and now there are production cars doing it........
Too many vairables on the inside of an engine to come up with a sure fire rule of thumb..
But when it comes to what a blower will add I think the old racers rule of thumb makes sense.
If you move twice as much air...you get twice the power.
Zag
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It has taken many searches to come up with the info I have so far and getting my head around it has been a learning expierence.
The end result will be that I get more HP and that is what I am after. My main concern is the correct ratio to spin the SC at to get 5-6psi boost. I think I will have it pretty close, but only trial and error will tell. :)
Any thoughts on water/metho injection?
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Water and methanol injection is a good way to
increase power and reduce detonation, you can
add up to 50% methanol to water, over that amount
there is no additional cooling, tho it will enrich the
mixture more. Also you can inject as much as 50%
the volume of water/Methanol mixture, as the fuel
flow rate, over this volume there is also no additional
cooling
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That was my idea to aid cooling and increase the fuel. I was going to use a 5th injector controller to control this. Would a 50/50 water metho mix be ok to inject through a conventional fuel injector? I was tossing up with this idea, but thought the injector may rust with 100% water.
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It would need to be a large flow injector.
I thought most injectors were stainless steel,
anyone know for sure ???
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I guess one high flow or two normal injectors would work fine.
Some may be stainless steel, but I have seem some corrode from bad fuel. If I could find a stainless one that would do the trick. :)
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I think the water methonal injection is just fine, but a couple of thoughts
(bearing inmind I don't know what your whole system is like)
If you design the system to achieve the boost pressures and hp levels you want...why do you need it. I have an old Ak MIller book on turbo charging at home and he described add on water injection as a band aid for poor design.....the case he was taking about was his!
If the engine is built to take it and the system can deliver it drop the intake charge temp using an intercooler system and you won't need it.
Just my .02CDN of humble opinion
Zag
Oh yeah.....late model injectors are generally stainless and compadable with ethanol fuels so I see no reason that they wouldn't work with methanol.
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True, I wasn't thinking about the reason for
water injection, it is really a trick to push the
engine past design limits and get more power
without nuking the motor. Wish I had it on the
Kick when I melted a hole in that piston ::) Cast
pistons should not have more than 5 PSI boost,
and under boost must be at a rich mixture, like
12.5:1 or you risk the same fate as my engine
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What I have is a stock 1.6l 16v multi point EFI Suzuki engine. I my thoughts were to fit the SC and run 5-6psi of boost when needed (the SC14 SC has a clutch and bypass valve) like acceleration and rice stomping. ;) The idea of water/metho injection was to make the stock engine last longer by reducing the combustion temps. I even thought of injecting the extra fuel needed through the SC. An intercooler is an option, but would be very difficult to plumb and serv no much benfit when off roading. When the stock engine dies (it has 200,000km now) I will re build it to suit the SC.
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Fit the intercooler....
Reduces the intake charge temp so you shouldn't need the water/meth injection, increases power and will make the exsisting engine live longer........yes it is a pain but the results are worth it and you won't have to do it later....
Also, If it was me I would redo the engine before fitting the SC. Why, gives me time to gather parts and work out the details, do it now before I blow it to smitherens and have to buy more parts, possibly expensive ones....do it once do it right.
Zag