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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Shrock on May 19, 2005, 11:06:57 AM

Title: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 19, 2005, 11:06:57 AM
Well we are finally rolling on the front bumper and sliders for the Tracker and Sidekicks  Shouldn't be long now.  If anyone has any comments or suggestions, Id like to hear them!

(http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/track-kick-front-proto.jpg)

Jim
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: zuksofhazzard on May 19, 2005, 11:07:33 AM
I have a comment.

SWEET!
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: azxr on May 19, 2005, 11:13:30 AM
Just to verify what I am looking at, I assume that is a model of half a front bumper?  Looks good if I am correct.

Will the pricing be similiar to your Sammi prices for the same item type?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: explosivo on May 19, 2005, 11:21:10 AM
All these plate 'kick bumpers look like Calmini replicas... which is fine, because it's a damn nice looking bumper, but personally I'd rather see something different offered, like a prerunner-style bumper or something :-/
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SuzukHunter on May 19, 2005, 11:45:29 AM
just wondering can i get the demensions so i can build one for my kick. looks good .  my budy nate has one from cal mini pretty close to that.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SnoFalls on May 19, 2005, 11:46:42 AM
I agree that the calmini "look" isn't what I really want ...

I want STRONG and lightweight ...

I will say I'm happy for ANY vendor to give me a choice over calrippi.

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Agent Orange on May 19, 2005, 01:17:07 PM
i like it. but can't these bumpers be made from aluminum so that they are lighter ?

i would like a calmini made from aluminum if it could be made as strong, and lighter.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: TomKat on May 19, 2005, 01:19:04 PM
Quote
I agree that the calmini "look" isn't what I really want ...

I want STRONG and lightweight ...

I will say I'm happy for ANY vendor to give me a choice over calrippi.

This bumper weighs 40 lbs, Shrock makes KILLER stuff. Got a set of his sliders on the wifes TJ.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/tomd26/sammy0011.jpg)
that's not much weight, especially with the synthetic rope. I don't even notice the springs sagging.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on May 19, 2005, 02:18:10 PM
I like the tow hook option.
I'll have a Kick w/o a winch bumper and would be interested in having another option for it.( already have an extra winch ;D)
And a good first-off price wouldn't hurt either ;) ;) ;)
Quote
If anyone has any comments or suggestions, Id like to hear them!

Jim

Sliders for 4drs and really good & solid mounting points for the bumpers. And a P# & price as soon as your done.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Autobot on May 19, 2005, 02:39:42 PM
Quote
... If anyone has any comments or suggestions, Id like to hear them!

Jim


Yes I have one. When you're done making these, make some  for the 99+ Trackers and GVs!  ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: whitfield on May 19, 2005, 03:56:31 PM
I'd like adjustable mounting options for Body lifts.  

I will probally be running 2" on most of my Kicks but might go stock with no body lift on the buggy.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: jagular7 on May 19, 2005, 04:25:33 PM
Quote
Well we are finally rolling on the front bumper and sliders for the Tracker and Sidekicks  Shouldn't be long now.  If anyone has any comments or suggestions, Id like to hear them!

img remove /img

Jim


Jim, I like your sense for a bumper for the Tracker and Sidekicks. For the Vitara model, 3rd generation, I'd prefer a little less front metal. I prefer the look of a bumper similar to Safari Gard's bumper for the Discovery II. The top loop doesn't have to be that tall, but I like the look of the lower tube following the bumper contour, then flowing forward in the winch area. Then the bumper wraps the corners as well as the lower tube. Take a look and just skip over their pricing.....http://www.safarigard.com/
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Blasted on May 19, 2005, 05:40:04 PM
Only thing is adjustable installation. Ive noticed at Calmini that you need to buy braces for the bumper if you have a body lift.  I havent called them but it dosent seem like theres an alternitive for anything less than 3" bodylifts. A 2" homemade body lift may not be 2".  A universal fully adjustable mounting system would be nice..   Thanks.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: lazarus on May 24, 2005, 09:09:23 AM
Quote
Well we are finally rolling on the front bumper and sliders for the Tracker and Sidekicks  Shouldn't be long now.  If anyone has any comments or suggestions, Id like to hear them!

([url]http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/track-kick-front-proto.jpg[/url])

Jim


you asked for comments, I gave you mine, I appoligize if I offended you. Just paint yours a different color and then it will surely be original.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: azxr on May 24, 2005, 09:24:30 AM
Okay, what happened to the other part of this thread that was here about 1 hour ago? ???
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: ed oorklep on May 24, 2005, 09:50:14 AM
The forum got back up with all the info it had 4 days ago, but we lost some info put up since the forum was hacked.
I'm just glad it's back up again  ;D   ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Rhinoman on May 24, 2005, 10:11:30 AM
Quote


you asked for comments, I gave you mine, I appoligize if I offended you. Just paint yours a different color and then it will surely be original.


Isn't that the winch thats represented by the blue and not the bumper.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 24, 2005, 10:34:28 AM
Quote


you asked for comments, I gave you mine, I appoligize if I offended you. Just paint yours a different color and then it will surely be original.



And what dandy comments they were....   You didn't offend me.  You just showed yourself to be a rude ass with obvious bias for your home town Bakersfield team.

Anyway, the bumper bears no similarity to that other bumper and will speak for itself when it's done.  In the mean time, here are a couple different views:

(http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/track-kick-front-proto2.jpg)

(http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/track-kick-front-proto3.jpg)

EDIT - Yes the blue was a model of a Warn 9000 winch for fitment.  i removed it in the pics.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 24, 2005, 10:51:49 AM
ok this is not bashing you or anyone else but why dosen't someone build tubular bumpers for trac/kicks?  this is the 3rd style of this type bumper and i know some people who would very much like some nice pre-runner style bumpers for there kicks.  my 0.2

stu
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Speedracer7c on May 24, 2005, 10:52:36 AM
Makes me wish I waited to order mine, I was waiting to see what you came out with, but I had an itch to spend money. I'll definitly hold out for a rear bumper if you decide to make one ;)
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on May 24, 2005, 10:59:06 AM
Quote
ok this is not bashing you or anyone else but why dosen't someone build tubular bumpers for trac/kicks?  this is the 3rd style of this type bumper and i know some people who would very much like some nice pre-runner style bumpers for there kicks.  my 0.2

stu

Why not have one made locally? You would be surprised what kind of fabrication skills you can find in your hometown area ;)

That being said I would buy the Shrockworks one first ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: DaddyDave on May 24, 2005, 11:11:34 AM
when did they start making tube bumpers?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 24, 2005, 11:27:31 AM
Quote

Why not have one made locally? You would be surprised what kind of fabrication skills you can find in your hometown area ;)

That being said I would buy the Shrockworks one first ;D

i'm not even wanting one for me.  i just have never seen anyone build one but everyone always said they wanted them.  I'm looking into a cheap bender soon so i can learn how to bend hoop myself and maybey even sell a few off cheap. ;D  i might have one built before RRO does :o ;D ;D

stu
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on May 24, 2005, 11:29:18 AM
Quote
when did they start making tube bumpers?



Who is "they"?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: lazarus on May 24, 2005, 11:34:51 AM
Quote



Who is "they"?


Ditto
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 24, 2005, 11:41:47 AM
I haven't ruled out a tube bumper.  This is just our traditional style and what would naturally come first.  If there is enough real demand for a tube/pre-runner  version, I'll make one.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on May 24, 2005, 11:47:13 AM
Quote
I haven't ruled out a tube bumper.  This is just our traditional style and what would naturally come first.  If there is enough real demand for a tube/pre-runner  version, I'll make one.


I want a tube bumper and I want it now mister!!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 92Sidekick4x4 on May 24, 2005, 01:22:07 PM
i like the bumper that wildweasl has on his rig.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SiKiD_01 on May 24, 2005, 01:42:08 PM
Tube? did some one say tube bars? hehehe.
there are a lot of tube bars in Oz, esp for zooks. but anything in comps will have a tube bar of some sort, and probably a full exo cage too.

maybe have a look here if it works.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29880

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/sikid_01/DSC07035.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/sikid_01/DSC07033.jpg)

this is a simple and plain design tube bar. mady by overkill engineering here in OZ. the front bar is supposedly winch compatible, as its got a winch mounting plate on it, but i have to make proper mounting points for it on the chassis.

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 24, 2005, 11:19:34 PM
Quote
i like the bumper that wildweasl has on his rig.

(http://www.cs.umass.edu/~glenn/finfront.jpg)

(http://www.cs.umass.edu/~glenn/mabell05080404.jpg)

;)stu
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on May 25, 2005, 02:21:39 PM
Now that would be a nice producton bumper
Up tight and personnel ;D
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/mabell05080404%20(2).jpg)
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SnoFalls on May 25, 2005, 02:38:45 PM
yup that's what I want shrock to make for a "tube" version ... (I'm not going to buy calmini or any "heavy" likeness)

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 25, 2005, 03:14:27 PM
I dont think enough people would be willing to cut a huge hole out of their grill like that for the winch.  It would work as a non-winch bumper though.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: locjaw on May 25, 2005, 03:23:22 PM
Quote
Now that would be a nice producton bumper
Up tight and personnel ;D
([url]http://www.omghi2.us/april05/mabell05080404%20(2).jpg)[/url]



Jim
I too would like to see someone build a nice light tube bumpers like these. I think you would be supprised how many people would sacrifice a section of their grill for a big increase in approach angle. ;)

jason
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 25, 2005, 03:36:11 PM
Hmmmm....maybe I should push the plate bumper back more...  It's already going to require grill trimming, but not nearly that much.

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on May 25, 2005, 03:37:32 PM
Tube bumpers.....  OK, you guys put your money where your mouth is.   ;D

Get together five deposits (refundable if you dont like the finished product)   Price to be determined, but will not exceed current Sammi bumper ($339).  I will have you a bolt-on production ready bumper within six weeks.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on May 25, 2005, 03:44:58 PM
Quote
Tube bumpers.....  OK, you guys put your money where your mouth is.   ;D

Get together five deposits (refundable if you dont like the finished product)   Price to be determined, but will not exceed current Sammi bumper ($339).  I will have you a bolt-on production ready bumper within six weeks.

With winch mount and avilable brackets for a 3"body lift?
Then You'll get my deposit.
I'll Have to Phone in mine.

Okay. This will be #1
Who's next?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Grandmaster on May 27, 2005, 01:42:31 AM
Im interested in one for a Tracker.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 27, 2005, 04:09:20 AM
Quote
Tube bumpers.....  OK, you guys put your money where your mouth is.   ;D

Get together five deposits (refundable if you dont like the finished product)   Price to be determined, but will not exceed current Sammi bumper ($339).  I will have you a bolt-on production ready bumper within six weeks.

you are now my new favorite vendor!  you are one of the only people that really talk to us about we want, not what you think we want.  Great Job!

stu
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SnoFalls on May 27, 2005, 04:29:45 AM
As to cutting the grill for a winch, not a problem if I maintain maximum approach angle.

The "receiver hitch" option would be nice also ...

If you can, also extend the "bolt on" mounts enough so those who wish can weld in additional "strength" to the mount.

Post up a link or "deposit" instructions and count me in (probably for a rear one as well if that's planned).
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SnoFalls on May 27, 2005, 04:37:51 AM
Quote

you are now my new favorite vendor!  you are one of the only people that really talk to us about we want, not what you think we want.  Great Job!

stu


I'll second that ...

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on May 27, 2005, 06:54:38 PM
I'll thirded it ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: zookiemike on May 27, 2005, 09:12:25 PM
Can you still smash into trees with it a tube bumper?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Speedracer7c on May 28, 2005, 01:16:02 AM
Quote
Can you still smash into trees with it a tube bumper?


Why not, I smashed into stuff with my stock one, It didn't like it but i did it anyway lol
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: SiKiD_01 on May 28, 2005, 02:09:54 AM
speaking about winches and winch plates, the winch plate on my bar ends up a couple of inches under the grill. this is so i can keep my approach angle. if i dont cut my grill to fit a winch, the bar needs to come out 3", and thats a lot of modding for brackets and mounts, not to include bracing and such.

i dont mind the winch in the grill area look, makes it look nice and neat, and mean too.

i dont think there too many options when it comes to wanting a tube winch bar with max approach angle.

as with tube and trees, i dont see why you cant smash into trees the same, only thing is, you might break the tree where the tube impacts, and have a huge stump in your sump, or something like that. tube bars always tend to make things go under easier.

i had about a tonne on the back corner of my tube bar, and it didnt bend or warp or anything. just gotta make sure your mounts are up to it, and its braced properly.
if done right, you could probably recover your rig from the tube bar anyway.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: locjaw on May 28, 2005, 03:40:22 AM
Quote

With winch mount and avilable brackets for a 3"body lift?
Then You'll get my deposit.
I'll Have to Phone in mine.

Okay. This will be #1
Who's next?


you will get my deposit as soon as you tell me how to give it ;D
now since you are into pleasing us how about a 3" susp lift using old man emu springs and struts, sas bolt on kit using toy axels, or you could just make us happy by shipping things the day its ordered and not tell us fib's when we call asking about the parts  :) :D ;D

jason
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on May 28, 2005, 07:16:07 AM
Quote

or you could just make us happy by shipping things the day its ordered and not tell us fib's when we call asking about the parts  :) :D ;D

jason


Now who would do that? ::)
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on May 28, 2005, 02:41:19 PM
I got my deposit in but Not sure which bumper.
The Tube would be new and different. but not knowing what it could look like.
Would it take a hit?
Extra recovery points on it?
Extra light tabs?
Prerunner style w/winch mount?
Or which ever one comes up cheaper (I'm a poor Lil Zookboy) ;)

Any design thoughts on the Tube bumper yet?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: mrfuelish on May 28, 2005, 07:22:19 PM
I ordered a rear bumper from shrock and some other parts, was here like next day and was packed in the box real well, first class all the way.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on June 01, 2005, 01:20:11 PM
So How we doing?
Good.
Right?
Any bumper pics yet?
I'm not in a hurry but just gotta see one of them;D
Or both ;) ;D
Low cost and function is Important for us poor boys  ;) :D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: 92Sidekick4x4 on June 01, 2005, 01:39:32 PM
cant wait to see some pics
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on June 01, 2005, 11:45:40 PM
Quote
So How we doing?
Good.
Right?
Any bumper pics yet?
I'm not in a hurry but just gotta see one of them;D
Or both ;) ;D
Low cost and function is Important for us poor boys  ;) :D


I think he is waiting on 5 full deposits before he commits to the build. See below:


Quote

Get together five deposits (refundable if you dont like the finished product)   Price to be determined, but will not exceed current Sammi bumper ($339).  I will have you a bolt-on production ready bumper within six weeks.


Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Craw4x4PH on June 02, 2005, 12:06:19 AM
Hi Shrock!
I was just wondering, do you use 3DS Max or Maya for designing your products?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: ksa421 on June 02, 2005, 11:38:08 AM
That is a slick lookin bumper...I would kinda like to see a stinnger front bumper for the Kick's.... I hope yours has a better mounting system than the one i have....I ripped my mine off once.... I knwo oyu can weld it on but not everyone wants to do that..
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: sergi on June 02, 2005, 12:09:07 PM
Quote
Hi Shrock!
I was just wondering, do you use 3DS Max or Maya for designing your products?


I'd have my money on Solid Works ;)

Cool bumpers!
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on June 02, 2005, 02:57:01 PM
I know I got mine in ;D
So by the first of July We'll see something?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Craw4x4PH on June 02, 2005, 11:12:23 PM
I can't wait to see what it would look like ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: whitfield on June 05, 2005, 11:27:15 PM
How many have placed a deposit for the tube front bumper?

(i have not, think I'm holding out for the other)

I don't think I see 5 yet.  Maybe he's picking up a few more from some where else.  

I've found a few others who are interested.  

Any preliminary designs?


(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/mabell05080404%20(2).jpg)
I like Wild Weasle's but my Local law enforcment would probally frown on it.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: runflat on June 06, 2005, 06:48:29 AM
Quote
How many have placed a deposit for the tube front bumper?

(i have not, think I'm holding out for the other)

I don't think I see 5 yet.  Maybe he's picking up a few more from some where else.  

I've found a few others who are interested.  



Okay, this hog just bellied up to the trough 8). I put my money down on a tube-style bumper with a 2" receiver instead of a winch mount... also talked w/ Jim about the possibility of incorporating a skidplate into the design. Now he needs a couple more people to pony up, so you guys give Jim a call! ;)
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on June 06, 2005, 08:09:07 AM
Quote

With winch mount and avilable brackets for a 3"body lift?
Then You'll get my deposit.
I'll Have to Phone in mine.

Okay. This will be #1
Who's next?

Heres #1

And I want a winch plate on a Tube Bumper ;D
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: paps133 on June 06, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
I'm interested in a front and rear combo for my tracker, if you in the process and drawing a rear one could you pm me with details.

Also do you have a rough idea on date availability.  For the front bumper, (not the pre runner style).

Thanks for your time,

Pierre

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: bass2 on June 06, 2005, 02:31:14 PM
last winter i was searching for a winch bumper but i was not happy with any of what all companys has to offer.

i hate tube bumper and the only one looking good was the calmini Plate Front Winch Bumper but too much $$$
http://www.puresuzuki.com/winch_bumper.htm

i always thought that a Sammy shrockworks winch bumper would had fit great on my Sidekick  ;D
so i draw this for fun in paintshop  
http://membres.lycos.fr/jfdaigle/Sunrunner/with%20shrockworcks.jpg

so today i read here that they finally ready to produce it for sidekick ???

too bad i just finished my work on my removable winch plate on 2 hitchs setup front/rear

without bumper view
http://membres.lycos.fr/jfdaigle/Winch_mount2/page1.htm?

finally with the plastic bumper on
http://membres.lycos.fr/jfdaigle/Winch_mount/page1.htm?

anyway i don't need a tank bumper so mine gonna do the job.
::)

anyway nice looking bumper shrock

cya


Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: whitfield on June 07, 2005, 07:45:25 AM
One of the Guys from Zuwharrie just stepped up too.  

We / yall are getting closer.

I'f I hadn't just dropped for an ARB on a Sammy I'd get the tube too.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on June 17, 2005, 07:32:46 PM
Okay, I know it's only been a week but
How're we doing so far?
Will I still get one in July?
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on June 28, 2005, 02:57:41 AM
Update -

We didn't get that much interest in a tube winch bumper, so what I've decided to do is the plate winch bumper and a non-winch tube bumper.   Having it not hold a winch will keep it light, tight and relatively inexpensive.  I'm always willing to reconsider, but for now that's the plan.  

The Rev 2 prototype of the plate winch bumper is going to be ready for a test fit today.  We are very close to being done on it.  

The frame mounting brackets for tube bumper are done.  I'd say maybe a month on that one.
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: nc_zuk on June 28, 2005, 03:44:00 AM
Quote
Update -

We didn't get that much interest in a tube winch bumper, so what I've decided to do is the plate winch bumper and a non-winch tube bumper.   Having it not hold a winch will keep it light, tight and relatively inexpensive.  I'm always willing to reconsider, but for now that's the plan.  

The Rev 2 prototype of the plate winch bumper is going to be ready for a test fit today.  We are very close to being done on it.  

The frame mounting brackets for tube bumper are done.  I'd say maybe a month on that one.


That's good news. There were so many who said they wanted a tube bember that I can't believe 5 people wouldn't commit :-/
Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: HotRod on June 28, 2005, 06:03:09 PM
quote from Jim Shrake
ShrockWorks - 4x4 Products

From an Em that he replyed to very quickly
Quote
We didn't get that much interest in a tube winch bumper, so what I've decided to do is the plate winch bumper and a non-winch tube bumper.   Having it not hold a winch will keep it simple, light, and relatively inexpensive.  I'm always willing to reconsider, but for now that's the plan.

The Rev 2 prototype or the winch bumper is going to be ready for a test fit today.  We are very close to being done on plate winch bumper.  

The frame mounting brackets for tube bumper are done.  I'd say maybe a month on it.

Jim

Title: Re: Winch Bumper for Track/Kick
Post by: Shrock on June 29, 2005, 04:32:20 PM
started a new topic.  

http://www.zukiworld.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=suzuki_talk;action=display;num=1120105798