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Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2005, 08:50:44 PM »
Thats unusual

     When we went throught the flow bench drill years ago we measured the used valves and seats and found that they were all just an interferance...could they all have been done? or did they make a running change we didn't catch?
     The FSM 8v grind sounds almost optimal with the valves done to match.

Zag
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 09:09:52 PM by zaggy »
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2005, 07:07:18 AM »
Hey CJ

     Went back over my old note books and your FSM info is bang on....all our flow bench work was done with G13B heads, we assumed the 1.6/8v would be the same. Oh well you know what that say about assume.
     Thanks for the info.

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Kevin_Johnson

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2005, 05:29:20 AM »
One customer sent us a G13B crank that Suzuki Racing Development had knife-edged and polished.  He wanted us to make a Teflon crank scraper to fit which we did.  You can also see the Pauter rods he used -- very nice pieces.

Kevin






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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2005, 06:50:05 AM »
Man.....

     That looks like real nice stuff...I like the idea of the teflon crankscraper for the big rpm engines.

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Kevin_Johnson

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2005, 05:27:43 PM »
That was the nice thing re the dyno testing on the Suzuki G10 engine it showed power increases from 2750 rpm all the way to redline (or max for the econo cam) at 5300 rpm.  Not really a high rpm engine.   Easy 3% hp boost.   Lots of people think the full windage trays on the G series engines stops windage loss completely -- no, they don't come close.


Man.....

     That looks like real nice stuff...I like the idea of the teflon crankscraper for the big rpm engines.

Zag

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2005, 11:39:09 PM »
Thats alot from straight windage control....

     I say that because we never saw that kind of percentage on the Chevy Sprint Car (355cid) engines when we dyno'd them.
     I still think the Suzuki has got pretty darn good oil control, but if you are getting that kind of percentage on the dyno I'll have to re investigate on the next build.

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Kevin_Johnson

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2005, 04:53:13 AM »
On the Formula 1 tech lists I have seen remarks from designers that 8% can be regained but that involves a lot of money.   Also straight percentages can be misleading but that is why I try to stick with dyno info from NA engines.  That is just the way the data comes out.

Church's dyno in LA did testing for a Honda team on the D16 patterns and saw 3% gains and that is interesting considering the massive girdle structure in that engine.   The Honda B-series engines with full windage trays showed 2.5% increases after a scraper was added.  The reason is that a windage tray serves a different basic technical function: it is a shield for sloshing or splashing sump oil.   Numerous OEM and aftermarket windage trays do have scraper louvers built in -- the iterative extension of that idea is the diamond stripper expanded metal screening sold by many suppliers.  However, the trays present in the Suzuki G engines (that I have seen) do not fill a dual purpose.

For a very long time (post WWII designs) positive lubrication automobile engines have had rotating assemblies that spin well clear of the sump fill line in a static engine.  Windage losses occur nonetheless because they are fed by large amounts of oil ejected from the rods, mains, oil relief valves and draining oil from the head.   Good places to look at the design consequences are the late model BMW engines.  They have dedicated passageways that isolate draining oil from the head that flows into the sump.  This is a sea change from earlier designs.  [The same design evolution can be seen going from the Toyota M series straight sixes to the JZ straight sixes.]

Here is a pic of a windage tray from a BMW m52tu that virtually seals off the sump: if you look at the bottom edge there is a series of large oil drain holes that link to tubes running to the head.  Also note that the tray itself has many internal facing louvers -- those are actually another form of crank scraper.




You might not have seen those percentages on the SBC because the skirts on the block are already very tightly confined around the rotating assembly (at the pan rail) and the scrapers for those engines tend to be quite narrow.  Nevertheless, crank scrapers (versus windage trays) are considered to be such an unfair advantage at many circle tracks that they are banned (and often windage trays are allowed).  Interesting, no?

Kind regards,

Kevin



Thats alot from straight windage control....

     I say that because we never saw that kind of percentage on the Chevy Sprint Car (355cid) engines when we dyno'd them.
     I still think the Suzuki has got pretty darn good oil control, but if you are getting that kind of percentage on the dyno I'll have to re investigate on the next build.

Zag

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Offline cj

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2005, 05:15:54 AM »
Kevin,
Thank you for contributing to this thread. This is very interesting. Can you you tell me how much greater are the benefits of the Teflon scrapers over the clearance style.

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2005, 06:59:59 AM »
Neat stuff Kevin

     Thanks for adding to the information pool...

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Kevin_Johnson

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2005, 12:43:59 PM »
Kevin,
Thank you for contributing to this thread. This is very interesting. Can you you tell me how much greater are the benefits of the Teflon scrapers over the clearance style.

I do not have back to back dyno figures but my guess is that closing up the recommended .040" running gap on the steel scrapers is worth .5%, as in moving from 2.5% to 3%.    Many professional engine builders will take clearances on the steel scrapers down to .015" and even .005".  At .005", however, there is no room for error as the sum of the bearing clearances (mains added to rods) will approach this amount.  That is also very close to the thrust clearance on some engines -- definitely something you should only do on an engine that is regularly torn down and inspected.  The Teflon, however, allows you to safely accommodate these issues and run closer still.

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2005, 12:57:52 PM »
Checked out your website....

Neat stuff...what's the life expectancy of the scrapers?

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Kevin_Johnson

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2005, 03:50:32 PM »
They should last the life of the engine like other mechanical components.   


Checked out your website....

Neat stuff...what's the life expectancy of the scrapers?

Zag

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Offline cj

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Re: Hey Zaggy I got a couple of Q's
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2005, 03:55:17 PM »
Kevin,
Thank you for contributing to this thread. This is very interesting. Can you you tell me how much greater are the benefits of the Teflon scrapers over the clearance style.

I do not have back to back dyno figures but my guess is that closing up the recommended .040" running gap on the steel scrapers is worth .5%, as in moving from 2.5% to 3%.    Many professional engine builders will take clearances on the steel scrapers down to .015" and even .005".  At .005", however, there is no room for error as the sum of the bearing clearances (mains added to rods) will approach this amount.  That is also very close to the thrust clearance on some engines -- definitely something you should only do on an engine that is regularly torn down and inspected.  The Teflon, however, allows you to safely accommodate these issues and run closer still.

Thanks Kevin