Only when hot when ECM is in closed loop mode.

AutoZONE can read your ECM to see if you have any DTCs. For free... That may help... BTW: even inexpensive scan tools, $125 or so, can really help out with modern day troubleshootin'.

Good Luck, Eric

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Only goes to 96, not OBDII compliant so that would be useless to me.

Also, I have no MIL light so I am concerned that a scan won't reveal any abnomalities.

A discussion with a garage this AM said OBDII is pretty tight with regard to leeway and anything out of the ordinary would fire a MIL indicator right off the bat.

Maybe it is carbon?  I am checking on boroscopes so I can probe inside the combustion chamber to see how much if any carbon is present.

Only when hot when ECM is in closed loop mode.

ok, htis sounds like a problem i had many many years ago w/ a new chevette (as in 1982, first new car err POS).

Wasn't injected, but had some type of ECM for what I don't know.  The thing would run great until it got up to operating temp.  I took it back MANY times and they kept saying it checked out fine.  It was really starting to frustrate me (similar to you...cliff, torch etc.)  Finally they made some kind of mechanical adjustment to the cold air inlet damper on the air intake. Problem solved.

Now I realize it's a completely different vehicle, and I don't know zip about your zuke, but maybe this gets you closer to looking in the right spot. Good luck!

I've learned that the PCM depends on the sensors to give inputs however each sensor has a "priority" in terms of what position in the loop it sends data to the PCM.

For instancce, in open loop mode, its reading off pre mapped software in the PCM to operate the engine.
In closed loop, it pulls data from O2 upstream and downstream, VSS, TPS, MAP, MAF, CMP, CRM, ECT, Air intake sensor..........et cetera

What I don't know and the FSM does not make clear, is which sensor "ranks" interms of priority.  For instance, all OBDII engines will read of the O2 sensors as priority 1.  TPS has to figure in there too as does the MAF.  QUestion is, which "value" from which sensor takes precedence over the other sensors.

For instance, the knock sensor will only override the CMP sensor when it detects knocking due to excessiv engine vibration.  However, it can only go so far to retard the timing after which it pings like crazy.  
Next, where does the MAP sensor come into play?  What values does it send to the PCM and when does it send them?
I suppose I will have to go glassy eyed and read the manual some more to gain insight as to where the sensors fit into the equation.

SIgh....................

O2 is priority 1, but the critical inputs are
all the ones you you listed.

Black tailpipe, not supposed to be like that
on a 2002, mixture is rich, which could be the
ECM trying to counter act the detected ping.

The ECM backs off timing and richens the
mixture to counter act the ping, so if the
ECM is wacked and not backing off timing,
the only other solution is fuel (Black Pipe)

Hmm, crankshaft angle sensor bad ??
what is the trigger for the spark ??
can it be moved for adjustment ??

Just thinking out load, and I could
swear you put Super in the little Hamster.

Ohh well, I ran super for years when I first
did the turbo, then added an intercooler, now
I can get away with 87 instead.

Wild

God I hope not the crank sensor.  Gotta pull the tranny to get to it!  Talk about a stupid boneheaded mornic piece of cow crap design!
Cam sensor is on back of head running off the Exh cam (its a DOHC motor)
I did the "finger in the tailpipe" (no, not THAT tailpipe) and it came away black but not excessive.  Water washed it off w/o soap.  (Yes I did use soap on me wittle hands later)

Sunday I popped another airfilter in it.  Thought that might help and I romped it a bit.

Weird thing is, I can be at 40 or so in fifth gear, stomp it, and one would thing that  under that kind of lugging, I'd get detonation or pre ignition big time.  But nothing, no peep.  However, if I hold it like this to say 50-55 or so then back off on the throttle halfway and hold it, then its ping time big time.

I still think its the TPS out of range telling the PCM that the throttle is open much farther than it is.  Per the FSM a 71 degree change in the angle (like blipping and holding the throttle open) is supposed to cut out the AC compressor. Well, I played with that this weekend and manually blipped the throttle  just a tad. OFf goes the AC!  I mean a barely noticable quick move of the throttle shaft!  

FOr the life of me, I wish it would throw a code just so I have some thing to go with.  As of yet, no MIL.

AUtozone said they'd read the ECM for free but did not promise anything as far as codes being stored.
WIll hit them up tomorrow night.

Went to Autozone. NO codes found.

Going to try to get to the next closest dealer in Wexford and see what they can come up with.

Probably not much.  

"they all do that"

"we can't find the problem" (because the stooge tech had the fan on high and the stereo cranked so it would mask any noise)

"unable to duplicate customer complaint" (meaning: we never even started it up)

"didn't get to it" (because its warranty work and we don't get paid for that)

"bad gas" (never mind I've used gas from all different stations in the county)

"ain't hurtin' nuthin'" (ok, let f&&& up your vehicle so it runs like mine and see if it still ain't hurtin nuthin)

"scanner didn't read any codes so therefore there is no problem" (meaning: we rely on chinese made scanners to do the part of diagnostic skills despite my ASE patch on my left sleeve saying otherwise)

"never saw that before" (meaning: unless its a flat tire or an engine on fire, I have no idea how to approach the problem)

"didja buy it here" (or, hey, we really have no reason to make you happy since you didn't buy the vehicle here)


Et Cetera.  Probably going to be a wasted day listening to a drone spew nonsense from a script worthy of slapstick comedy.

Hammy, you didn't understand my post.
you need to find an independant repair,
they should have a Snap-On Scantool,
it does real time data logging, and will
record what's happening IE too much advance,
O2 readings etc.

A friend with one that will do it as a favor,
as mine does, is a bonus, but if you have to
pay them a few bucks to figgure out the
problem it could be worth while.

Wild


PS  and if you have already tried this I have
2 options, Moab has some really tall cliffs
and I can set you up with a turbo and a
MegaSquirt EFI CPU  

That's all fine and dandy wild, but this is a warranty issue.  At least that's my opinion......ummmmm lets see 3/36 bumper to bumper.....yup, I say its a warranty issue.
I am not too excited about forking over money to fix a problem that can/should be covered under warranty.

Out of warranty, sure, I understand its my baby then.

I am guardedly optimistic that this other dealer will be able to shed some light on this.

Otherwise, this thing is otta here.  I don't need headaches; I need a vehicle that works.  Period.  Its all I got to drive and it needs to perform.  Simple as that.

I know the payoff and what its worth so I have some wiggle room here.

This sucks man.  I know how you're feeling.  I hope things work out.  Nothing is worse then hearing the same old crap being spewed out of people's mouths.

WELL YOU KNOW AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY RUNS OUT THEY'LL KNOW WHATS WRONG. BEEN THERE DONE THAT .............................MATTY  

Suzuki water temp sensor had been know to go bad very fast. I had work on a V6 2.0 and the ECU just flooded the engine every time. Disconected the water temp sensor and it ran fine with the engine light on. Replace it and it is running normal. This is an idea, maybe you disconect your water temp sensor just to rule out the fault. Bad water temp can cause the engine to run rich or lean. Hope this help.

Hansen auto will be up and running MOnday as a full line zuke dealer.  ALready, he's got 40 rigs on the lot plus cars.
Met the owner, he's gonna hook me up with warranty work when they get the paperword signed.

Keep your fingers crossed.

Good news is, this place is literally downhill from me so if the hamster croaks, I can coast there.  Maybe make a hagen jump over the curb too!

That is good news! I hope they can solve the problem.