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Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?

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Offline GO_OUTSIDE!

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Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« on: September 14, 2012, 06:47:19 AM »
I am at the end of my build and am having some handling issues. I have a SPOA on stock springs, new Gabriel shocks on relocated lower mounts, an OTT steering kit from Lowrange and new 31" AT's. The steering damper is old but still dampens.

On pavement the truck doesnt want to return the steering wheel to center after a turn and need constant attention to keep it straight. It seems to want to grab and go in the direction of the side of the truck that is weight loaded, either from a steering input or change in road camber. I have been working with the toe in angle on the front end trying to correct this. As I apply more Toe in the on road manners get better but the offroad handling get worse. Currently it is acceptable on pavement and scarey on gravel.

I have adjusted the play out of the steering box but it still drives as if something is loose in the front end.
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Offline fordem

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 10:31:19 AM »
What are your caster angles like?

Chances are with SPOA you have rotated the front axle "top to front" to get a reasonable drive shaft angle, this causes the caster to become more negative (or less positive) and this directly affects the "return-ability" of your steering.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 04:07:21 AM »
You stated " you adjusted the play out of the steering box " and that imo, is why your steering will not return to center. Most of the slop in our steering systems can be attributed to loose and worn linkage, NOT steering box " play." If the steering box gears are too tight the steering will not self center and they can also bind and be damaged. Try loosening the steering box adjustment back to it's stock adjustment. The best way is to jack up the front, loosen the adjuster while someone else turns the steering wheel back and forth. Then check all your links for play and replace as necessary.
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Offline GO_OUTSIDE!

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 10:09:44 PM »
I put in a new ott kit and only adjusted the play out of the box. I didn't use the spring scale to set it per the manual, but I am pretty certain it is not overly tight. I'm out of town and will double check next week.
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Offline tombstone

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 06:31:13 PM »
OK,how fast are you trying to drive on that gravel??40mph-50m mph or more??Anything over about 15-20 and it could be the road surface!

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 04:38:29 AM »
I put in a new ott kit and only adjusted the play out of the box. I didn't use the spring scale to set it per the manual, but I am pretty certain it is not overly tight. I'm out of town and will double check next week.

Well, if you know about the spring scale, you probably didn't overtighten the box adjustment, and it's just a by product of your lift?
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Offline GO_OUTSIDE!

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 06:27:40 AM »
At around 50mph it starts to give me trouble. My Tacoma doesnt give me any trouble at all and I run the same road at 70mph when Im late for work.

Bentparts, do you think if I fab'd up a panhard bar it would help? Today it fely as if the front right wheel caught an invisible  groove and pulled it quickly to the right.
Another symptom is the wheel wants to pull to the right for a few miles and then returns to normal. I am suspecting a sticking front caliper but havent had a moment to check.
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Offline FBJR

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 08:28:22 PM »
You have a short wheelbase solid axle (50 year old design) vs an IFS with rack and pinion longer wheelbase vehicle.   

Even taking the slop out of the gearbox, you normally back it off a little.

A Tocoma and lifted Sammi will not drive the same. Not surprised it fishtails a little at 50mph! regardless.
 

I think I had a motorcycle that was heavier!!

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 09:11:17 PM »
I'd check the front caliper first, but I'd have to agree with FBJR, might just be a short wheelbase issue. I don't have any real experience with modified sammy suspension, maybe someone who does will chime in. Check your tire pressures too.
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Offline Pest!

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 08:29:54 AM »
Your Sammy is very light and has a very short wheel base so it will be quick to swap ends in the rain and on gravel roads and a sticky caliper would only make it worse. The reason several company's have made reversed front springs is that having leaf springs shackled at opposite ends makes for a vehicle that will change directions when the suspension moves.  When you compress a spring it moves the axle away from its fixed attachment to the frame steering the Zuki away from that side. on uneven roads it will squirm and even worse under braking.  Also if your front axle was tilted even a few degrees in the process of lifting it your caster will be off and not return the wheel to center as others have said. 
88.5 Samurai,1.6L 16V Tracker obdII, Calmini reversal with 5" lift., Bushwackers, Rockrawler wheels w 33" 1050/15 BFG KM2s  ,TC. Bumpers, Lockers,  4.16 Tcase, power steering , oversize fuel tank, Warrior Rack
Bob

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Offline GO_OUTSIDE!

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 06:21:52 AM »
I really need to slap a protractor on the kingpin and check my camber.
I had a wrangler for years that I used to wheel as much as possible. It didnt squirm like this. Same technology.
I lowered my tire pressure from 36psi to 30 psi and have noticed an improvement.
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Offline crewcabrob

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 06:38:01 AM »
From what I understand so far, tire pressure could make a huge difference in the manners of your Samurai.  Here is a recent discussion about tire pressure:

http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=49075

Rob
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Offline GO_OUTSIDE!

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 02:05:48 PM »
Thanks Rob,
That is a very helpful thread. I was beginning to wonder how low i could run the tire pressure on the street. I would not have gone below 28psi for extended travel without seeing that.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2012, 03:53:26 PM »
Good lord man, 36 lbs! I'm surprised that thing didn't bounce into low earth orbit first big bump!
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Offline crewcabrob

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Re: Why is my sammy fishtailing on gravel?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 06:03:33 PM »
Thanks Rob,
That is a very helpful thread. I was beginning to wonder how low i could run the tire pressure on the street. I would not have gone below 28psi for extended travel without seeing that.

Not a problem.  It was a crazy discussion that I thought you might appreciate.

I'm going to try low pressure, something around 20psi and see what happens.

Rob
92 Sami, OME YJ SPUA, 15x10 Ultra wheels, 32x11.5x15 MTR/k, Corbeau Moab seats, Shrockworks bumpers and tank skid, Mighty Kong, 6.5:1 gears, hi-rock rails, Bushwacker 6" flares, Rampage tinted top, Grant wheel, Truck-lites LED head lights, PIAA LED driving lights, MOAB Husker Spirit license plate