ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: ZeusZuki on March 11, 2006, 01:58:47 AM
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Well gentlemen, it is time to take the gloves off and get down to business ;)
We are looking for well thought out replies to see who is "The king of suspension" :)
Please share your constructive opinions on what you believe works better, why and in what sort of situations.
This thread could help "Newbies" decide where to concentrate their efforts with either "enhancing" an existing ride or choosing one suitable for their proposed needs ???
If nothing else it could generate some interesting debate :-\
Briefly - In my opinion: SAS if you are looking for flex and IFS if you need good clearance for ruts etc. NB: Flex is over rated but ground clearance is very valuable ( if you are not hanging up then it is easier to keep going ). Both set ups can be built strong so no advantages there. IFS can be more difficult to modify correctly but generally is a better option for a DD.
And there is more, but we want to hear from you. So keep it coming ;)
ZeusZuki
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Just woke up and I'm too tired to think for myself yet so I'm going to quote Mike to get things started on this thread.
... I really think IFS and SAS are about presonal preference. I think of it like the automatic and manual transmision debate. There are enough upgrades to build an IFS kick to run as strong an reliable as most any SAS swap you would do to a kick. A store bought SAS and a store bought IFS build are probabally going to be more similar in price than you would think. The upside to an IFS build can be done in stages though.
Mike
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Why is a solid axle better for wheeling? :
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=8772.0
Why get rid of the IFS? :
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=63.0
my two cents on lifts and sas:
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0
I thought we had a genuine SAS vs. IFS thread somewhere that was like 8 pages long but I can't find it.
Anyway, IMHO there IS no king. It all depends on what you want to do. You want desert racing, street racing, mudding, go with IFS. You want flex, rock crawling, off camber situations, go with SAS.
:)
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the best thing is to have 2 rigs, 1 with IFS and 1 with SAS ;D
it really is just a matter of opinion.
i am a SAS advocate ;) but i do own both
jason
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Anyway, IMHO there IS no king. It all depends on what you want to do. You want desert racing, street racing, mudding, go with IFS. You want flex, rock crawling, off camber situations, go with SAS.
I would have to agree. It is all about preference, terrain and personal driving style. Their is no such thing as the one "perfect" set-up for every situation and every driver. Everybody is unique in their skills.
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the best thing is to have 2 rigs, 1 with IFS and 1 with SAS ;D
it really is just a matter of opinion.
i am a SAS advocate ;) but i do own both
jason
My philosophy is that it's best to have two rigs as well!
One with SAS, the other with a factory solid axle. ;D
Edit:
Almost forgot to mention that Jeep changed their Grand Cherokee to IFS...
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i agree - it's all up to you and how you wheel your truck. ifs works better for us but we are not too hard on the truck and its one of our daily drivers.
derek
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I toss this subject around in my head all the time. I have seen a SFA out perform a IFS in a given circumstance and vice versa. I like the way a SFA with a good suspension can articulate over rocks, etc. Their ability to twist and articulate is great. But, I have seen IFS with a good suspension and sway bar disconnects articulate like crazy too. A good IFS set up has less low points to hang up on obstacles too. If you run fast over bumpy terrain the IFS seems to be more forgiving and ride better. If you run massive, big lug tires and a strong motor SFA gives you more brawn to handle it. Like others have said it really comes down to what you are building your rig for and what your preference is. Serious rock crawlers will most likely want a SFA for it's features. Forest and desert trail runners and DD rigs do just fine with IFS.
I know build an IFS rig that converts into a SFA with a button on the dash. ::)
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Anyway, IMHO there IS no king. It all depends on what you want to do. You want desert racing, street racing, mudding, go with IFS. You want flex, rock crawling, off camber situations, go with SAS.
I dont agree on your rockcrawling and off camber opinion.... I rode in the Rockstar at the Badlands and Ill tell you I didnt see anyone with a sas rig do this. Start at the top of one of the very steep dunes and take off down it. About 1/3 of the way down turn the wheel and gun it, riding sideways across them then turn again and go back to the top.... The first time Mike did it with me riding scared the crap out of me!!! And the Rockstar placed 2nd overall and 1st in its class in the rockcrawling event there.
Bill
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I'll have to admit that IFS isn't horrible, as long as no IRS is involved.
There seems to be no real place in off-roading for a completely independent suspension.
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There seems to be no real place in off-roading for a completely independent suspension.
oooo.... boy I totally disagree with that one!!!
My Sportsman has 4 wheel independant and it shines off road ;)
But seriously......... there are quite a few fully independant suspended off road vehicles out there... ummmmmmm HUMMMER (although they are BIG, they go.....) ;)
In my opinion, as material costs and technology advances... we will see more and more 4Wheel IS...
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Has anyone checked out the video vault section?
http://www.zukiworld.com/main_departments_videovault.htm
Here's a couple cool video's...
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_050104/movies/moab2004_final/mov01810.mpg
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_110103/movies/zukiworld3.wmv
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There seems to be no real place in off-roading for a completely independent suspension.
oooo....  boy I totally disagree with that one!!!
My Sportsman has 4 wheel independant and it shines off road ;)
But seriously.........  there are quite a few fully independant suspended off road vehicles out there... ummmmmmm HUMMMER (although they are BIG, they go.....) ;)
In my opinion, as material costs and technology advances... we will see more and more 4Wheel IS...
One of my buddies is too into baja, and was saying there's stability issues with it, especially landing huge air.
The Hummer isn't your usual vehicle. It's like calling a Poison Spider a J :-X :-X p.
How's the new GV doing with its IRS? Being Suzuki, that's probably how I will judge how well stock IRS should be.
Who's Zuk is that in the last video? I saw Oregon license plates.
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You want flex, rock crawling, off camber situations, go with SAS.
I definately dissagree here. My personal Opinion is Flex is overrated. Stability and durability are where its at. As for rockcrawling, I have entered my share of rockcrawls. I have almost always placed in the top tier of my class. With proper skidplating an IFS rig can essentially be a boat with wheels. That is definately a huge advantage. The part I dissagree with most is the off camber ability of IFS. If an IFS rig cant side hill better than an SAS then something was built very wrong. A huge advantage of IFS is that the engine can be mounted inches away from the front diff creating the lowest center of gravity possible.
Its no secret that I totally prefer IFS. Contrary to what most belive this does not mean I don't like straight axles. I just belive that IFS is just as valid a choice as a solid axle.
Mike
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You want flex, rock crawling, off camber situations, go with SAS.
A huge advantage of IFS is that the engine can be mounted inches away from the front diff creating the lowest center of gravity possible.
Mike
Or as with the case of the TrailBlazer, Hummer H3, and Colorado The engine oil pan is part of the front diff with the axle shaft going right through it.
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I think, with the tracker being so short, it doesnt matter what you have, dont need as much flex as with a fullsize pickup. The fact the diff doesnt hang up on ruts, it's an advantage. It's also a more comfortable rife.
Sas is more indestructible, comes with better flex
I think the Cat's Meaow is a Portal axle SAS setup. Has ground clearence like no tomorrow, gear reduction in the hubs on top of the diffs, and plenty strong. But I love my IFS and not likely to change.
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I think, with the tracker being so short, it doesnt matter what you have, dont need as much flex as with a fullsize pickup. The fact the diff doesnt hang up on ruts, it's an advantage. It's also a more comfortable rife.
Sas is more indestructible, comes with better flex
I think the Cat's Meaow is a Portal axle SAS setup. Has ground clearence like no tomorrow, gear reduction in the hubs on top of the diffs, and plenty strong. But I love my IFS and not likely to change.ÂÂ
Perhaps some of my love for the SA comes from my full size.
It's an '85 and the leaf springs are worn and flexy, and that stock set-up was amazing friends.
I have had my diff catch quite a few times. I absolutely hate that.
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Ok, I stand corrected on the "off camber situations" portion. I don't think that's what I originally intended to say when I posted anyway, but oh well. :)
I still stand by the rock crawling portion. Give me a good example of a completely IFS rig (front and rear) crawling on the rocks. :)
Mike, I like your front IFS setup. I think you've done a great job with it. Just want to note however that I think you do get a lot of your flex and performance out of your solid rear when on the rocks.
But, are we comparing an IFS rig as IFS front and IRS rear here, or are we comparing an IFS rig as a factory rig with front IFS (modified) and solid rear? I would assume it's the latter on this forum.
I still think there IS no king whichever way you look at it. Decide which will work better for YOU, and go for it!
FWIW my truck is still a great DD. :)
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But, are we comparing an IFS rig as IFS front and rear here,
IFS rear ??? Is that like a male cow? I think you are talking about IRS ;)
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I think it's pretty safe to say, as has been said several times in this thread, that the best suspension setup is designed around what you're doing with your rig and your personal preference.
My preference is SAS, but that's because I want something bomb-proof with a 4.3L V6 and 37" Iroks ;)
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But, are we comparing an IFS rig as IFS front and rear here,
IFS rear ??? Is that like a male cow? I think you are talking about IRS ;)
Yah, thanks. ;D
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I still stand by the rock crawling portion. Give me a good example of a completely IFS rig (front and rear) crawling on the rocks. :)
Granted, it was GOOD on the rocks... he did go back to SA... but here is ONE good example of a completely independant crawler.. and it's not the only one.. not even the bets one..
Don't get tricked into thinking narrow mindedly.. lots of stuff is possible with active suspention...
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If walker could just learn to drive... ::)
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I heard he swapped the rear back to solid. Anyone else?
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Well gentlemen, things are progressing nicely ;D. Keep up the good work :)
Oh yeah - this is for you Mike - "WALKER RULES" :P ( golf clap, or is that just the clap ??? ).
ZeusZuki 8)
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Walker went back to solid axles front and rear!
Independant suspension has its good points and like any suspension can be made to work real well. Take VW dune buggies for instance. Independant rear with lots of travel and can handle sick HP!
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If you notice, I didn't even mention his name, and I stated right there that he went back to SA...
BUT, the feller asked for just one GOOD example of a independantly sprung crawler on the rocks... I gave just one GOOD example of that.. there is NOONE here that can say that that wasn't a kick ass truck... problems and all.. and if you put a DRIVER behind the wheel... who knows.....
The feller stated that there was NO PLACE of independant rear suspension off road.. and that was the comment that I was refuting...
as far as which is better..... well... I want one of each... and more...
Flex, traction, whatever... you can measure it on a ramp.. but the measure of a vehicle is where it will GO... I don't compete, most of you guys don't compete, we drive our vehicles places..
Mine seems to go places others have more trouble going, in MY neck of the woods... SO, I like my truck for my trails...
There is no KING!! lol... off-roading is anarchy!!
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I know my IFS 4-door has pissed all over full-sizes, even though i'm unlocked. Once you get used to driving with 1 wheel in the air almost all the time, it's more fun than straight up flex, and it also looks like you're having to work and drive better than the other dudes with more flex.
The amount of times i've considered a SA, and haven't yet done it, i think it's because i've gone everywhere i've wanted to with the IFS.
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Has anyone checked out the video vault section?
[url]http://www.zukiworld.com/main_departments_videovault.htm[/url]
Here's a couple cool video's...
[url]http://www.zukiworld.com/month_050104/movies/moab2004_final/mov01810.mpg[/url]
[url]http://www.zukiworld.com/month_110103/movies/zukiworld3.wmv[/url]
Ya that 2nd one kicked ace!
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BUT, the feller asked for just one GOOD example of a independantly sprung crawler on the rocks... I gave just one GOOD example of that.. there is NOONE here that can say that that wasn't a kick ass truck... problems and all.. and if you put a DRIVER behind the wheel... who knows.....
Feller?
;)
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I am curious how much the cost is of doing a completely independant rock crawling rig, such as was shown. I would assume a lot of custom parts would go into a suspension like that, and could potentially be $$$$$. And if you break something, you have to plan on having that custom made part on hand.
Neat looking rig, though.
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BUT, the feller asked for just one GOOD example of a independantly sprung crawler on the rocks... I gave just one GOOD example of that.. there is NOONE here that can say that that wasn't a kick ass truck... problems and all.. and if you put a DRIVER behind the wheel... who knows.....
Sorry Heather, you know, I didn't even notice I was answering you.... lost myself in heated discussions.....LOL...
Now I have to go back and read the whole post again, as there was another member I was refuting somewhere... LOL...
Peaceout...
Feller?
;)
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Well, I'm just getting into doing a SAS and one thing for sure it will cost you more $$$(gears, double cases, custom driveshafts, highsteer etc..). IFS is starting to look pretty good right now... ::)
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Well, I'm just getting into doing a SAS and one thing for sure it will cost you more $$$(gears, double cases, custom driveshafts, highsteer etc..). IFS is starting to look pretty good right now... ::)
I think this kind of depends on your resources and fabrication skills/time.
As far as gears, if you try to find an axle that already has the same gearing, you're set. For a driveshaft, on the front, run a square one, which is about $40 in metal. Highsteer is the same idea, just try to make it.
I really do like my solid axles.
Best of luck to you with the swap.
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Well, I'm just getting into doing a SAS and one thing for sure it will cost you more $$$(gears, double cases, custom driveshafts, highsteer etc..). IFS is starting to look pretty good right now... ::)
This all depends on what setup you plan to use, which axles, which springs, etc. Also depends on your fabrication skills, like the other poster stated.
I'll count all the completely custom parts on my suspension swap that are significant.
OTT kicker 3
OTT high steer arm
Drag link has sidekick tie rod on one end.
Drilled out driveshaft flanges on the Samurai case for the Toy shafts which were retubed. (cheap).
I think that's it.
Toy FJ80 axles, Toy drivelines, Jeep YJ springs and shackles, Ford F150 shock mounts, Toy FJ80 steering components (minus the OTT high steer arm), Toy FJ80 rear sway bar, Samurai front sway bar...
Pretty much everything on my SAS swap is "go to the nearest junkyard", "get from the 4x4 store", "get from the dealer" replaceable.
Fabrication skills were needed for the steel mounts and crossmembers. Steel was cheap as we have a steel recycling place here.
Most expensive portion of the swap was the axles, and that's because I went FJ80. Modern, Elockers, High Pinion, Beefy.
But find a rust bucket, non running toyota pickup 79-85 and buy it on the cheap ($100-500) for the suspension components and you'd have most of what you need. You could even go without double cases and continue to use the sidekick case with it's slip yokes, if you do it right. We've got a buddy who's going to experiment with some motorcycle spring/shock setup on his drivelines when he goes SAS to see how it works. If the tension on the spring/shock keeps the driveline in, that's all you need.
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TASTES GREAT
LESS FILLING
;D
Zig
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**Hijack**
What's up Heather? Where have you been?
Zig
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**Hijack**
What's up Heather? Where have you been?
Zig
Playing videogames...
;)
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maybe i m a bit late,,
i changed mine to sas as its been said , build your truck to what you want it to do ,
mine is a challenge truck and i found with my ifs the axle were weak the bolt holes ilongated and i didnt have enough travel on the front,
nice pick of comeplete cross axle and the body is still straight
(http://forum.difflock.com/discus/messages/8/158007.jpg)
I have to say the driving has changed completely if i had to drive her every day i would have kepted IFS
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nice pick of comeplete cross axle and the body is still straight
I saw your post about the rear wheel coming off on the motorway but I was assuming you'd replace it ??? ???
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yeah , its back on minus spacers as it was those cheapy ones that seemed to be the cause of the wheel coming off , you can just make out the top of it
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yeah , its back on minus spacers as it was those cheapy ones that seemed to be the cause of the wheel coming off ,  you can just make out the top of it
Could be I bought the LA Supertrux steel spacers, they seem pretty bullet proof. Where the stock studs OK cos they are fairly soft and stretch quite easily. Might be worth replacing them with some better ones from an autofactors.
Apologies for wandering off topic.
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Come on guys. Quit the small talk and get back with the program ;)
PS: A wheel coming off :-X :o Cripes, I hope no one got hurt :'( Had that one happen myself a long time ago ::) NOT NICE AT ALL :-X
ZeusZuki 8)
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If walker could just learn to drive... ::)
ROTFLMAO....
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okay ,thats it!! i'll be the king , its a tuff job but i think i can do it ;D stan ;D ps i need to learn to drive !
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I like being different and showing off. :P
When I show up with the lil truck with IFS on 32's I get a ton of different looks and coments...
Most like, "How much trouble it this thing going to cause us."
And then afterword the "WOW" factor happening when I've kept up or beat the other rigs on the trail. :)
The other part is when a group comes to a long straight bumpy streach. I can fly down it, park and wait for the other SAS to slowly follow. ;D
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I like being different and showing off. :P
When I show up with the lil truck with IFS on 32's I get a ton of different looks and coments...
Most like, "How much trouble it this thing going to cause us."
And then afterword the "WOW" factor happening when I've kept up or beat the other rigs on the trail. :)
The other part is when a group comes to a long straight bumpy streach. I can fly down it, park and wait for the other SAS to slowly follow. ;D
Hell Yeah! I had another day of that Saturday!! Exactly that!!
I am still amazed everytime I wheel it..
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i find my SAS is smoother off road than my IFS was i can take the bumps quicker ???