ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: brentd27 on December 14, 2007, 10:08:45 AM
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Been researching Turbos and superchargers and was wondering if something like this:
[URL Removed for space]
or this:
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would be overkill for a 8v tracker engine? If it wouldn't be too much, what else would I need to add to be sure it worked correctly?
Keep in mind that my Tracker is a daily driver (sometimes) and I really just want a little more power to be able to pass with confidence at highway speeds. I've already got a Thorley header and 2.25" exhaust system and high-flow cat / muffler.
Edit: I'm still researching superchargers in general. Don't really want to mess with a Turbo for various reasons, mainly the complexity. Might be able to get my hands on a McCulloch VS57 supercharger that is supposed to produce around 5lbs boost and looks to be pretty much universal. Reading up on this thing it's old, but the design is brilliant.
So what else would I need to do to my engine? Boost fuel pressure? Larger injectors? Change the MAP Sensor?
Also, how does a supercharger affect those parts of the system that need Vacuum??? Vacuum is drawn from the intake manifold, so if you're now putting a positive pressure on those parts, do you have to re-route vacuum before the supercharger?
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You would need a supercharger that is suitable for a smaller engine. The Track/Kick motor flows a lot less air than a 5ltr Mustang engine.
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I guess an MP45 would be ideal. Was looking at those mustang chargers because they look like they would be easier to adapt to the track/kick intake.
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1.6L vs 4.8 (or 5.0)L
Difference of: 3.2L
So.... you're trying to fit an extra 3.2L of boost into 1.6L of space?
Subaru turbos seem to be the most popular. I lost track of all the turbo builds a couple years ago. I'd be interested in seeing some builds if anyone has links.....
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I don't really want to mess with a turbo. All the exhaust piping & intercooler stuff just seems like more trouble than it's worth...
Had another brainstorm though.... What about a Supercharger off of a SeaDoo? Seadoo engine displacement is 1494 cc's That's roughly 1.5 L (actually 1.494L) and they're also high-RPM engines.....
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A 2 stroke, or 4 stroke seado? A 2 stroke fires 2x as often as a 4 stroke. So, a 1.5L 2 stroke is going through as much air as a 3.0L 4 stroke. It's why they get so much power for a small engine.
Really, this has been done before - trust me on the Subaru turbo, or look for a small toyota supercharger (there are a rare few other aftermarket superchargers for <2.0L out there) if you're still hell-bent on a supercharger.
Also, it doesn't sound like you fully understand the function of an intercooler....
When you compress air (turbo & supercharger do this - it's how they get more air forced into your engine), it heats it. Hot intake air is BAD for your engine. It causes premature wear. It's the #1 reason many forced-induction engines have a very short lifespan. To combat the heat issue, people use intercoolers (really a MUST have for boost over 5 lbs) to cool the air back down before entering the engine. HUGE intercoolers is why Volvo engines last so long.
You can technically tun turbo or supercharged without an intercooler. But - 5lbs of boost from either is going to have just as much engine-killing heat (presuming they're equally efficient, but that's a whole-other issue).
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Also, it doesn't sound like you fully understand the function of an intercooler....
When you compress air (turbo & supercharger do this - it's how they get more air forced into your engine), it heats it. Hot intake air is BAD for your engine. It causes premature wear. It's the #1 reason many forced-induction engines have a very short lifespan. To combat the heat issue, people use intercoolers (really a MUST have for boost over 5 lbs) to cool the air back down before entering the engine. HUGE intercoolers is why Volvo engines last so long.
You can technically tun turbo or supercharged without an intercooler. But - 5lbs of boost from either is going to have just as much engine-killing heat (presuming they're equally efficient, but that's a whole-other issue).
You're right. I didn't understand the intecooler. I was thinking it was needed to cool the exhaust gas going into the turbocharger to keep it from overheating for some reason. I found an excellent website on the McCulloch VS57 that has clarified a lot of stuff for me. At this point my main objection to an actual turbo is the complexity of the custom exhaust manifold. I like simplicity. That's one reason I like my Tracker so much is that the engine is relatively simple. Superchargers are just more elegant in their simplicity. Plus I want to do something different. Turbos have been done to death on here, but I've never seen a Supercharger build. But you are right, I probably don't know as much about this as I should, but I will definitely ask every question I can possibly think of before I even begin the project. I still have an Aztek to finish re-assembling.
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A turbo manifold or a custom intake manifold or a custom mount to mount a supercharger makes no difference. with a supercharger you also have to figure out a blower drive pulley off the crank which can be fun and can also put alot of extra load on the crank. the main problem with both is fueling. the basic FI system in a 8 valve tracker does not allow for tweeking to get the A/F ratio proper. Very easy to run lean and burn a piston.
A turbo system is actually easier to mount than a supercharger most of the time.
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From what I can see, the VS57 wouldn't require a custom intake manifold on the tracker. given the diameter of our intakes, mating the VS57 to the tracker intake would be a matter of basic plumbing. Not sure about the mounting bracket...
I totally understand that most people think Turbos are the best way to go, but at this point I've read about a bunch of Turbo builds and have seen several of them and at this point am really more interested in the underlying concepts.
Given 5lbs of boost, whether it comes from a Turbo or a standard blower, what would I need as far as fuel pressure, timing, etc?
My tracker already has A/C and power steering and even though the A/C clutch is starting to go out, I don't think I want to sacrifice the A/C for the supercharger, even though with the VS57 it looks like I could mount it to the A/C bracket with minimal modification.
As for the belt drive I could always have a local machine shop mill me a custom crankshaft pulley with under-drive for the A/C and Alt but with whatever drive was necessary for the blower.
A turbo manifold or a custom intake manifold or a custom mount to mount a supercharger makes no difference. with a supercharger you also have to figure out a blower drive pulley off the crank which can be fun and can also put alot of extra load on the crank. the main problem with both is fueling. the basic FI system in a 8 valve tracker does not allow for tweeking to get the A/F ratio proper. Very easy to run lean and burn a piston.
A turbo system is actually easier to mount than a supercharger most of the time.
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A custom pulley is probably a must for you if you're going to keep your A/C. Toyota built a supercharger for a (I think 1.8L?) that runs on an electronically actuated clutch (i.e. - you can turn the supercharger on / off with the flick of a switch ;D ).
Intercoolers aren't hard to pipe. You're going to run either one of two setups:
Supercharger -> piping -> intake manifold
or
Supercharger -> piping -> intercooler -> piping -> intake manifold
If you don't want to run one, the less boost you run, the less you'll need an intercooler. Anything over 4lbs (in my opinion) really should have an intercooler. Even 3-4lbs of boost will help your engine run longer. You probably shouldn't do much more than 5lbs of boost without upgrading the engine internals (pistons, rings, rods....).
And, as stated - you're going to require higher-flow fuel pump & fuel injectors.
And, don't forget you'll ALWAYS have to run premium gas. The higher octane is needed to combat detonation (which will eat your engine alive).
There's lots of turbo forums out there. If you're going to make your own custom setup, I highly suggest you seek them out, and do a TUN of research first. There's also people who've done turbos here, and a lot of the issues they ran into (engine cooling, oil cooling, timing, injector & fuel pump sizes etc) are going to be the same issues you'll need to address.
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I was going to run a supercharger at first, but it's a lot more complicated than it looks, especially getting the correct pully sizes for the amount of boost you want to run. It's also a pretty complicated belt system, if you include the needed tensioners. Space is another concern. No matter what you choose, turbo or super, it's a ton of work. However, if you get it right, it is surely worth it. It took me 6 months of chasing down issues and fixing them before mine ( turbo) ran right. Then the turbo oil seals blew. Now I'm rebuilding the manifold and fitting a NEW turbo, no more used crap. Good Luck, and happy building!
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Keep your boost to a max of 3 PSI and you can get away with stock pistons and
injectors on an 8v engine. remember even if your boost is only 1 PSI, ya I know it
sounds weak, you will gain a big jump in power, about 10%.
An engine will normaly pull 2-3" vacuume at WOT now you are talking about
presureized intake of 1 PSI, thats quite a jump if you look at it this way.
Good Luck
Wild
PS, I would of done a supercharger if I could of found one.
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Other than an inter cooler you can put louvers in your hood to keep temps down, it won't be as direct by lowering air charge but it will help. I cut a plate to direct more air from the lower air damn into the bottom of the radiator. There are dual diaphragm timing advancers that will reduce advance under boost to reduce detonation. I haven't found any that fit yet but I will. There are after market high flow injectors, but I haven't looked much into them much yet, a few steps at a time right?
Turbos are a project and take some serious work and headaches. Superchargers are no less a headache. But there are some pretty cool rewards to all this.
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See, the thing I like about the VS57 is that it has a maximum boost setting. You can set it anywhere between 3-5 pounds and the internal mechanics of the supercharger automatically adjust it for the desired boost. As I understand it, the VS57 has an outer pulley that adjusts itself in and out based on the output of the supercharger to change the effective size of the pulley and keep it spinning at the speed necessary to either produce the maximum boost possible for the current RPM or drop the speed down to prevent more than the set maximum. The way it's designed, you can push it up to a little over 6 pounds of boost, but it's not recommended, and the engine would have to be running over 5100RPM's with a 7" crankshaft pulley to drive the VS57 over 6 pounds.
When the VS57 was made back in the 50's and 60's it sold for less than $200 as billed as a "universal supercharger" that would fit any engine from 50 to 300HP.
If I go this route I'll probably put in an intercooler. Would give the hood scoop and holes I cut in my hood some purpose. Then again, I might try to form up some sort of air box and use the scoop for the intake and put the intercooler elsewhere.
(This is purely speculation/dreaming at this point. Like I said before I've got to get my Aztek's engine back together and running before I can start monkeying around with the Tracker.)
I was going to run a supercharger at first, but it's a lot more complicated than it looks, especially getting the correct pully sizes for the amount of boost you want to run. It's also a pretty complicated belt system, if you include the needed tensioners. Space is another concern. No matter what you choose, turbo or super, it's a ton of work. However, if you get it right, it is surely worth it. It took me 6 months of chasing down issues and fixing them before mine ( turbo) ran right. Then the turbo oil seals blew. Now I'm rebuilding the manifold and fitting a NEW turbo, no more used crap. Good Luck, and happy building!
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to answer your other question about boost where there should be vacuum the answer is yes you need to change the PCV system. Your system will put full boost into the crankcase causing you to pour oil out of every seal in your motor. Seals will purge at 2-3 lbs. The answer I found to this is to simply plug off the PCV port and run an inch of heater hose with another plug on the intake plenum. From the valve cover tube run a breather hose long enough to keep dirt from coming in. Took me about a week to figure it out. After that every thing else is fine. Your brake booster has a check valve and will move back to full vacuum (18" mercury) at idle or anytime not under boost.
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This might be a stupid question, but what about the distributor vacuum advance? Also, I've added a cruise control system that is vacuum driven. Will I be SOL on that?
And for other options on Superchargers, I've seen a some made for Mini-Coopers, 1.8L VW Bugs, and 2.4L toyota previa's. Would the 2.4L one be too much or could I throw a larger pulley on it and gear it down?
BTW: Thanks to everybody that has replied so far. This discussion is fascinating and it's definitely giving me a lot to think about.
to answer your other question about boost where there should be vacuum the answer is yes you need to change the PCV system. Your system will put full boost into the crankcase causing you to pour oil out of every seal in your motor. Seals will purge at 2-3 lbs. The answer I found to this is to simply plug off the PCV port and run an inch of heater hose with another plug on the intake plenum. From the valve cover tube run a breather hose long enough to keep dirt from coming in. Took me about a week to figure it out. After that every thing else is fine. Your brake booster has a check valve and will move back to full vacuum (18" mercury) at idle or anytime not under boost.
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when u guys say the supercharger is for a 4.6/5.0 and its gonna be to much boost couldnt he just put a bov (blow off valve) on it
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I have an arctic cat T 660 snowmobile. The T is for turbo. This is a 4 stroke. If you ever look under the hood of one of these it looks just like a minature version of a car motor. Alternator etc. its all there. The turbo is not very big. With limited space under the hood of a tracker I always thought it could be the best setup. My turbo pipe has become disconnected before and the sled will only run about 50 mph. It really makes a big diff. The only difficulty would be that the turbo is electronically controlled but I do know of some racers really boosting these things up, so there has to be a way. Just thought I would mention it. yOu Might want to check it out.
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The supercharger you mentioned sounds like a good fit, however trying to find any mechanical device built in the 50's or 60's that doesn't need a complete rebuild may be problematic at best. Then theres the problem of finding parts for a 50 year old supercharger. Are they still making these? Hell, I might switch if there were new ones available!
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Check out www.vs57.com There's all the info you could ever want to know about them on there. Parts are still available as McCulloch eventually became Paxton which was then bought out by Vortech. Vortech didn't want to mess with the older centrifugal Paxton/McCulloch superchargers so they sold all the tooling, engineering drawings and blueprints, complete parts inventory and the rights to reproduce anything needed for the older McCulloch superchargers to Paradise Wheels Inc. I don't think the VS57 is actually made anymore, but you can still get replacement parts to rebuild them.
The supercharger you mentioned sounds like a good fit, however trying to find any mechanical device built in the 50's or 60's that doesn't need a complete rebuild may be problematic at best. Then theres the problem of finding parts for a 50 year old supercharger. Are they still making these? Hell, I might switch if there were new ones available!
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when u guys say the supercharger is for a 4.6/5.0 and its gonna be to much boost couldnt he just put a bov (blow off valve) on it
Not too much boost, just too big. With a big supercharger you need to compress a lot of air to get any boost. You can compensate to a degree by spinning it faster but it becomes inefficient.
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Have a look around for the SC12 supercharger that Toyota fitted to the 1.6 4AGZE. It has a clutch like an air con. You should be able to pick one up pretty cheap. They also did a SC14 that was fitted to the 2.0 1GGZE.
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I like the idea of being able to kick the charger in and out as needed, but does the SC-12 have enough flow-through for the engine to run properly with the clutch turned off?
How would that work? Have relays set up so when you flip a switch the clutch engages and maybe a secondary fuel pump kicks in to boost fuel pressure? I guess it wouldn't be too hard to rig up a servo controlled bypass plenum for when the charger wasn't running.
How would mixing ethanol into the fuel mesh with using a supercharger? I've seen some comments that you have to use higher octane gas, could you get around that by running a certain percentage of Ethanol?
I wonder how creative I could get with the fuel system and still have a vehicle that runs? :P
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I'm pretty sure the SC12 has an internal bypass like a wastegate that opens when the SC stops. look up hobbes switch for adding additional fueling.
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This may be another stupid question, but my mind is really running in circles on this whole super-charger idea... Particularly now that you guys have pointed me to the SC12 with the electronic clutch and built-in bypass. So here's the question... Instead of tinkering with the stock fuel system and trying to boost the pressure on it, what if I did something like add a small auxiliary tank somewhere and set it up with a second fuel pump so that when the boost is turned on it pumps ethanol into the fuel line along with the stock gas pump running? This would serve as an octane booster while the boost is running and also raise the fuel pressure... Or would it be simpler to just run a water/alcohol injection system? Is it even necessary? Am I going nuts and taking y'all with me?
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This may be another stupid question, but my mind is really running in circles on this whole super-charger idea... Particularly now that you guys have pointed me to the SC12 with the electronic clutch and built-in bypass. So here's the question... Instead of tinkering with the stock fuel system and trying to boost the pressure on it, what if I did something like add a small auxiliary tank somewhere and set it up with a second fuel pump so that when the boost is turned on it pumps ethanol into the fuel line along with the stock gas pump running? This would serve as an octane booster while the boost is running and also raise the fuel pressure... Or would it be simpler to just run a water/alcohol injection system? Is it even necessary? Am I going nuts and taking y'all with me?
Might as well just go nitrous and be done with it at that point.
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Might as well just go nitrous and be done with it at that point.
What is the fun in that? you don't get that beautiful supercharger whine going down the street, plus you have to keep buying nitrous. This could be a beautiful thing, fairly easy to install and you can turn it off and on at will.
There is really only one way to set something like this up. you need to get a piggy back controller for the ECM, they aren't to expensive. Then book some time on a dyno at the local speed shop. If they know what they are doing they will be able to dial the truck in up until the demand exceeds the capabilities of the fuel system. Then if it is a 16v you can look at installing bigger injectors if you want more. If it is a 8V you can get an aftermarket TBI.
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Nitrous (NO2) just adds a lot of air in a condensed form. Without adding extra fuel you will run against lean melt down with the quickness. Plus has anybody mentioned Trackers have really spindly connecting rods? ECMs are great but Higher fuel pressure and/or high flow injectors with a clean O2 sensor should do fine. Menthol and the like are great if you are running 10+psi but otherwise some hood vents should be fine.
Menthol works by spraying on the outside of the inter cooler to bring down air charge temps. And by doing so Air condenses and you can stuff more air and fuel into the cylinders increasing power. Don't forget that an EGR pumps 600 degree exhaust gas into the cylinders. -- Side note 600 degrees F is still cooler than the 1200 degrees inside the cylinders and since exhaust gas doesn't burn it keeps temps down to keep pesky oxides of nitrogen (NOx) read smog} The point? Don't close off your EGR port and a few pounds boost doesn't necessitate an inter cooler.
Pick a book called TurboChargers by Hugh MacInnes or any other how to and what are turbo books. I'm going to suggest turbos to you over superchargers because the power produced is a function of engine load as apposed to just engine speed. I now drive around town 1K RPM lower and believe that my mileage is doesn't differ much because of it. I also have a lot more low end power now. For the amount of work going in turbos have about the same headaches but a more versatile power band.
Considering you already have headers and a few other goodies I'd suggest maybe a cam and cam pulley and a high flow filter and see how that does for you.
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ECMs are great but Higher fuel pressure and/or high flow injectors with a clean O2 sensor should do fine.
An 8V is a MAP based system, the stock MAP sensor only goes up to 1 bar so the ECU won't be capable of calculating fuelling under boost. You could try a 2 bar sensor but the ECU uses fixed MAP values for a number of parameters and these will all be wrong.
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Maybe I'm not doing some calculations right, but 1 bar = 14.5psi correct? If I'm only operating 5psi boost that's well within 1 bar, or am I not taking normal atmospheric pressure into account or something?
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Maybe I'm not doing some calculations right, but 1 bar = 14.5psi correct? If I'm only operating 5psi boost that's well within 1 bar, or am I not taking normal atmospheric pressure into account or something?
Its absolute pressure thats measured. Normal atmospheric pressure is approx. 1 bar so any boost gives a pressure above 1bar, ie 5psi boost is 19.5psi absolute.
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I'd like to add another question into the mix here. I recently read that the equivilent of adding boost pressure into the system, is simply raising compresion, 3lbs boost =+/- 1point in compression. To me that sounds about right, and knowing that the 16v engine is 9.5 to 1 when fresh, that means 5lbs boost would be effectivly raising the compression ratio to about 11.5 to 1. My experience has primarily been with motorcycles, but an engine is an engine. A properly prepared engine can easily run that kind of compression using premium pump gas. In fact, many OEM's currently market vehicles with those kind of numbers, many of them even higher in the motorcycle world. 12 or 12.5 to 1 is common and rpm ceilings are stratispheric, like 13, 14, 15000 rpm. Motors as small as .6ltr are making 115-120 hp, low toqure though, 40-50 lbs. But 1ltr, FI, inline 4 street bike engines routinely make in the 170's with well over 100lbs torque. A 1.6 liter 4 would be considered big for a 4 cyln motorbike motor, and there are some, and they reliably provide 200 hp, maybe 150 ftlbs, on pump premium. I'm getting a little tired of all the tail chasing involved with force feeding these motors. So many issues related to heat with a turbo, and mechanics with a blower. I'm thinking there must be pistons availble in the correct bore size, and deck height, to effectivly raise compression to at least 11 to 1. With corresponding cumbustion chamber re shaping and an accurate radiused valve job, along with the mods I've made to my fuel and air systems already, coupled with a new 2.5 in exhaust, this should net me an across the board increase in the neighborhood of 30hp. If the cam timing was shifted 800 to 1000 rpm lower, I think this might me a better engine than a boosted one, especially one that is primarily used as an adventure type vehicle. The biggest advantage is the simplicity. No added external parts to break or require field service. I figure my turbo motor made near 135hp, running 4-5 lbs boost, the majority of that being made above 3500 rpm. That's strictly a seatofthepants estimate, but close I think. I believe that a fresh, NA 16V with the above mods could come close, reliably, without the added complication, and much more of that power would be available much sooner. Premium fuel would be a must, no different than the turbo, and internal and external cooling would also need improvement, in my case also already done. I know honda d16 motors have a huge availability of aftermarket support, and the pistons are supposed to be close from the conversations I've had with a couple of local tuners. Cams are available from several sources, a couple right here on this site. 30 HP doesn't sound like much, and it really isn't, but when your starting with 95, thats 1/3rd more, 33%more, that's a good #. Anyone done this to one of these Trackick motors? Or know of anyone?
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As I was reading your post about raising comp I was going to say that the Honda D16 piston would be worth a look considering the Honda boys use the G16B pistons to lower their comp. ratio when adding boost.
A good cam and exhaust along with an adjustable cam gear made my 1.6 go much better but it still needed that piggyback interceptor added as there were some air/fuel ratio issues due to the cam grind that needed attention. Personally if I had another 1.6 I'd just do that as it was effective and pretty straight forward without having to tear down the engine.
The other option but it does get more involved is to go the big bore using Miata pistons but with these the rod needs some minor maching to take the piston pin. I looked at this when I had my 1.6 and by all accounts it works well although the guy that was doing this has since gone to custom pistons for his later conversions as he doesn't need to alter the rods plus he can specify whatever comp. ratio is required. I am now looking at the option of doing a big bore on the J20A taking it out to 2.3 like the Aerio as I can't get that engine here.
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Hmmmm, I wonder how big a bore can be managed with the current ( 95 to 99) 16v block? bigger bore, + higher comp= more torque and HP. Definitely worth looking into.
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Hmmmm, I wonder how big a bore can be managed with the current ( 95 to 99) 16v block? bigger bore, + higher comp= more torque and HP. Definitely worth looking into.
I'd be cautious about overboring the block. I've seen a lot of cracked Zuk blocks and overboring is going to make them weaker still. Higher compression may well be easy to implement, the Zuk motor is designed to suit worldwide markets and from what I've seen is timed to suit some pretty low octane fuel (88-91RON). If you're running quality fuel then theres a fair bit of scope for tuning.
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Going to try and find a source for pistons. Raising compression seems like it might do the trick. If and when I find a piston that is a drop in I'll continue this thread with a new write up. Untill then , anyone know a good source?
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Wanted to thank everybody again for their input. I feel like I've learned a lot during this discussion and it's resulted in me reading even more than I ever anticipated about boost-related systems. I'm not going to end up doing anything until I have my other vehicle drivable again but I think I will probably proceed with an SC12 supercharger and who knows what else. I'll probably start with just the supercharger and an intercooler and just see what happens, then I'll throw more complexity at the system until it behaves the way I want it to. I don't really care all that much about efficiency of the system. It's just one of those thing I'll do for fun just to see if I can actually do it successfully. Hopefully I won't end up blowing my engine. :P