ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: djlantis57 on August 30, 2010, 12:09:34 PM
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***UPDATED with installation pictures page 3. Click HERE (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/general-suzuki-forum/rear-air-helper-springs-for-trackick/msg286669/#msg286669)***
I've run them in all my trucks and my dad's, my brother's, etc, so I know how they work. I know bentparts even had a set for sale on the Classifieds here recently.
I'm tempted to do it to my 90 Tracker 2dr, if needed...I think too much of a load will cause the rear end to sag, which is okay, but if I do it too much I know the rear end will begin to sag PERMANENTLY, and I don't want that.
I'd love them for DD usage because I've had great luck with them in the past, but what about offroading?
Will they limit rear flex, and/or wear out prematurely with a lot of rear axle motion?
Don't want to waste my $$$ if I'll beat them to hell in a short period of time
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If I run mine without air I don't even notice their there, actually get too much flex without them. They make great soft bumpstops when you do put a few lbs in them though, but still allow plenty of flex. I found a set of the Airlift bags for a Chevy that are the same diameter as the Trackick ones, but 3 inches longer. They work great with the 3.5" lift coils I have in the back. The Bags that are meant for the Trackick' will need some kind of spacer if your using longer coils. I'll try and find the part# if you want. BTW, next time I have my front end apart for maintenence, I'm gonna try and fit the old stock bags in the front coils, to act as soft bump stops, and with a bit of air It may help keep the coils from sagging there too. I know if I pump 'em up to max press in the back I get another inch of lift. Just the thing for that deep water! >:D Btw, I've been using them for 4 years without wearing out anything. Pretty tuff stuff, and their cheap, $89 complete kit JC Whitney.
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Yes, I was thinking the OE-spec rear bags would fit the 3" lifted front coils nicely. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could pull up a number for those Chevys you have in the rear. Are they Air Lift, Firestone, or another company?
When you wheel, do you deflate them a little, or remove a valve core, so they can inflate/deflate as the suspension travels and compresses/extends them?
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When I wheel I generally keep a bit of air in them just to keep my wheels from stuffing into the fender well to far. For flexing it's a non issue. I don't remove the valve core, don't want dirt getting sucked in there. Mine are Air Lift from JC Whitney. I'll get you that part # when I get a chance, been working lots of hours and haven't been in my shop for a while. If your in a hurry and got a few minutes, I just called AirLift and spoke to a tech to get the # for the kit. I just told him what I had and asked for available longer bags.
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I fitted a small set of air bags in my sidekick workers pretty good :)
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Nice job noisyjack, the only thing that would concern me is their vunerability to rocks, tree stumps etc. That's another good thing about the air lift's, bag inside coil , more protection. Still though, I bet you can adjust ride height more with that type of bag.
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About three to four in. of lift I had about 600 lb. in the back with a little bit of air in the air bags and was good to go ;D (no back seats.)
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Seems like a good idea. Bentparts, no hurry, so whenever you get that part #, let us know. Whether or not I'll actually do it, at least your info could help someone else if they search and this thread pops up. I'd have to wait and see if I even have a problem with loading gear in the back.
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Depends on how much you load, but I mainly put mine in for when I tow my little pop up trailer, the little bit of tongue weight would pull it down a bit. I'll be in the shop today and look for the number's.
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Thanks. I may (or may not) have any issues, but I'd like to have this info ahead of time in case I do decide to do it.
Like the idea for putting the OE-spec rear bags in the front coils. Would make perfect sense if you had sagging coils (probably ride better too).
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I ride with about 2 to 3 lb.in the air bags and does not effect the ride .The thing that's effect the ride is the 31x10.5x15 6 ply . In a 2000lb. ridge ;D
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Noisy- now I see how you hauled a full moose without dragging you receiver hitch in the dirt. Bent, I would like that part number also.
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I bought two set of air bags at a sale. Put one on my 2006 Chevy and the outher one on the sidekick. Don't know what there were made for but I will see if I have the box that they came in :D Had to make up brackets for both of them..
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Here is the moose on the rack and in the back of the sidekick ;D
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Damn. Is that with the air bags or before you installed them?
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This is before the installed :)
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I asked because it was sagging pretty bad in those pics...it must handle weight a whole lot better now, huh? Because those are some really stout bags you mounted on yours.
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I hope I get a chance to try then on the next MOOSE ;D
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Bent- I tried to find them at JC Whitney, but no luck. Any better discription I could try?
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I will try to get the part No. tomorrow. Been busy :) I think the nane brand is air lift. I will cheque.
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http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/suspension-air-bags/air-lift-air-bags?gclid=CP3zl_O_jqQCFUWC5QodVkKYLA (http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/suspension-air-bags/air-lift-air-bags?gclid=CP3zl_O_jqQCFUWC5QodVkKYLA)
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Ride Rite is the name brand. I lost the box and part No. The bags are about 3 to 4 in. round and about 5 in high and had to make up most of the brackets.
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Sorry Medford and everyone else waiting for info on the Airlift bags, the ones 3" longer than stock. I could not find the reciept in my records, so I'll have to call Airlift to get the part #.
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Well I thought I'd wait and see if I needed these...turns out I definitely need them! I had it loaded to the bumpstops before I left town Friday...got around the corner from my house and had to come home to unload everything...and it was only a few ice chests in a hitch rack...imagine what the weight of a deer or bear would do :o so, yeah, if you could dig that up I will be needing it VERY soon. I'll do my own research too and post what I found out.
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What about air shocks?
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That's an idea, also, but I'd rather have the air springs...I've had great experience with them in the past. I know other people who have used air springs and it seems more hit-or-miss depending on the application, but I've never tried them myself...
also, noisey, how did it handle loads after you installed those bags? Any pics?
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Sorry guys for the long delay, I've been layed up with a back injury. Listen DJ, just give AirLift customer service a call and ask for a tech. Then tell him what you've got ( Suzuki Sidekick/Geo Tracker ) and that it's lifted aprox 3". You want an airbag set up 3 inches longer than the stock one. They'll be able to give you a part # that you can order from someplace like JCWhitney. That's where I got mine. I'm almost POSITIVE the bags I got were for some kind of Chevy, same diameter as the Zuk bags, just 3 inches longer. Or, you could just use the stock bags and a spacer. I did remove my bump stops to get them to fit properly, but you don't need the bump stops after you put the bags in, they act like a soft bump stop. OR, you can use the stock size bag, and just trim the rubber bump stop to the right length instead of removing it as the directions call for.
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This is how well the bags work. Take a good look in the back window, I'm loaded top to bottom, and the roof is loaded too.
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That's an idea, also, but I'd rather have the air springs...I've had great experience with them in the past. I know other people who have used air springs and it seems more hit-or-miss depending on the application, but I've never tried them myself...
also, noisey, how did it handle loads after you installed those bags? Any pics?
No problam.The most air i put in was about 10Lb.and with no weight lifted 3 in.I pack a small hand held 12V air compressure work great if i need more air :) Never had a as much weight as the Moose.Had 8 , 40Lb bags of cement mix in and on problams.
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Hmmm thanks guys. I'm going to try to find the type that fit inside the coil spring. bentparts, how much pressure did you run in those pics? Still within the limits?
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The most I've ever had to put in them was 15lbs, and that was loaded and towing my camper. If I put the max in ( 35lbs) it actually lifted it another inch and made it pretty stiff! You really can use the stock size bags, I did for years with OME coils and a 2" coil spacer 'ta boot. When I switched to my FOA Coils, they were 4 " longer than stock so that's why I went to the longer bags, that and it looks much cleaner without all the spacers and crap, lol.
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Thanks for the info. Gonna do my research, I'll post my findings. I'd rather get the longer bag now and install it now, before I wear out the springs prematurely.
EDIT: Online I found that the rear is P/N 60793. Just got off the phone with Air Lift tech. They said 60793 is 3" dia. and 5.5" tall. I told them I wanted 3" longer and they said they have one 2.5" longer, and to leave 1/2" of the bumpstop on to accomodate for that difference...P/N 60756 is 3" dia. and 8" tall. The tech also answered my question about rear flex, and he said the inside-the-coil springs are, indeed, better since they don't limit any travel...just as I thought because I have the frame-to-axle style bags like noiseyjack on my other trucks and they limit the axle droop when I put it on a lift for servicing. Noisey's are definitely better for HUGE loads but I think if I loaded up that much stuff, that my Tracker couldn't pull it anyways :laugh:
They also said that if I provided a front ride-height measurement for the front springs, they could supply me with a part number for the front springs. It looks like I could do rears-up-front and make it work. I'm gonna figure that out, too, and post my findings...I'm trying to get air on all four corners right now in case I decide to put that hitch rack on the FRONT of my truck...at least I'll have front support too
What are FOA coils? I was reading MUD CHILD's post about his fix for Calmini sagging springs and he uses FOA coils, I've never heard of them until recently...
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FOA is a company out of Nevada, LV if I remember correctly. They specalize in coils springs and shocks. They list coils by size, spring diameter and spring weight so it's easy to find the correct coil and length. I run their rears and have a set of fronts I'm gonna put in, eventually.
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Thanks for the info. Gonna do my research, I'll post my findings. I'd rather get the longer bag now and install it now, before I wear out the springs prematurely.
EDIT: Online I found that the rear is P/N 60793. Just got off the phone with Air Lift tech. They said 60793 is 3" dia. and 5.5" tall. I told them I wanted 3" longer and they said they have one 2.5" longer, and to leave 1/2" of the bumpstop on to accomodate for that difference...P/N 60756 is 3" dia. and 8" tall. The tech also answered my question about rear flex, and he said the inside-the-coil springs are, indeed, better since they don't limit any travel...just as I thought because I have the frame-to-axle style bags like noiseyjack on my other trucks and they limit the axle droop when I put it on a lift for servicing. Noisey's are definitely better for HUGE loads but I think if I loaded up that much stuff, that my Tracker couldn't pull it anyways :laugh:
They also said that if I provided a front ride-height measurement for the front springs, they could supply me with a part number for the front springs. It looks like I could do rears-up-front and make it work. I'm gonna figure that out, too, and post my findings...I'm trying to get air on all four corners right now in case I decide to put that hitch rack on the FRONT of my truck...at least I'll have front support too
What are FOA coils? I was reading MUD CHILD's post about his fix for Calmini sagging springs and he uses FOA coils, I've never heard of them until recently...
The air bags are not attach to the axle. So the axle can drop down and fully flat en out there about 2 in. :) The axle has just about full traval.
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This is how I looked before I left last Friday, loaded to the bumpstops. Came back and unloaded the whole rack but left my cargo in the back seat area... :o
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DJ!! where are you going with that meat cart! I know you want your Oregon brother to come help load it! :laugh: Don't forget to take a picture of the big butt muley you are going to put on that rack so we can all see. PS are you going to tow your trucklet or is that some over sized tank trap breaker you have on the front?
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Damn Dude! I thought I could load, you need a trailer! :laugh: How's that rig do on the freeway with all that weight?
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DJ!! where are you going with that meat cart! I know you want your Oregon brother to come help load it! :laugh: Don't forget to take a picture of the big butt muley you are going to put on that rack so we can all see. PS are you going to tow your trucklet or is that some over sized tank trap breaker you have on the front?
Come help load it...because I just returned back from a unsuccessful weekend again...but the weather seemed to affect everyone else in the area, too...it poured on us, and we only heard of one animal taken all weekend from the area.
You never know, and it's always best to plan ahead...it was the first real "drive" since I got it running, so the tow bar is just in case...actually, the real use of it is, I can hitch it up to the back of a jeep so I can help push the jeep around on the more difficult trails :laugh: seriously, though, it's for that hope-it-never-happens situation where I may need someone to tow me home. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it
Damn Dude! I thought I could load, you need a trailer! :laugh: How's that rig do on the freeway with all that weight?
That's the point...that's when we left the first time...we arrived back less than a minute later to unload all that stuff...it was riding on bumpstops and I noticed it before I even left my neighborhood. I have a small WWII-era 1942 Bantam trailer, but it needs 2 tires...the guys at my tire shop are finding me two decent 30" or 31" tires for it. That little trailer would be perfect, though, because it has virtually no tongue weight.
And I should have posted those pics in the Zukiworld Adventure Game but didn't get around to it.
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Uh, yeah, you would have one upped me for sure! Let us know when you get the bags in. Their cake to install.
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Bent; The red ride you had pictured on the ZW adventure, loaded to the hilt was what year? ??? Wish mine was a hard top. That picture was awesome, I only wonder how much oxygen there was left to breath in the cab of that thing. ;D
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Uh, yeah, you would have one upped me for sure! Let us know when you get the bags in. Their cake to install.
But you one-upped me because yours was properly loaded...mine wasn't hardly even drivable!
Bags will be on hold. Not enough time to try to install them between hunting trips...I will get them done before next season, definitely. At least I got some part numbers available now so I know what to get and where to find them.
Let US know if you manage to mount the rear stock length bags in the front. If you can do it, then I know it's possible for me. Since you already got a set it's easy for you to experiment.
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Medford, mine's a 95. It was fine as long as the windows were open or the ac on :laugh: Love that little rig. DJ, I keep meaning to tear into my front end, the pass side is making a bit of noise, but I just don't have the funds to replace parts or pay for an alignment right now. It's not too bad, I can live with it for awhile. I have been studying the available space and it seems there should be no reason the bags won't fit or work. The only issue I can see is how to run the air line so it doesen't get fouled. I'll figure it our eventually.
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Thanks, it'd be helpful. I didn't think about routing the air line, maybe it could be stubbed out at the top of the spring bucket (not the bottom side).
If you need funds...you could always sell that turbo setup to one of us. I'm sure you could get at least a couple hundred bucks for it ;)
And yes, it is extremely nice to have a tintop with AC!
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Well guys, I wanted to put an update out on this:
I bought these and installed them last summer...I've been using them for the past year with no real issues, so now it's time to "report" on it. The bags are pretty damn durable and I leave about 10lbs in them at all times. Rides better than before.
This is a blend of installation tips and re-installation tips from last month when I reconfigured them a little bit. I didn't have any pics of the original install so these will have to do.
I used: AIR LIFT brand, part number 60756. They are made for a Saab model 900. Specs are 2.5" longer than the ones spec'd for the Tracker, but with the same diameter.
FYI for those that don't know, this is going on a 1990 Tracker with 3" Calmini suspension. That's why I could not use the stock-length ones designed for the Trackkicks.
I installed them WITH the included bumpstops (PIC 1), and ended up with this factory bumpstop/added bumpstop/air bag stacked-up mess with the back of the Tracker about 5" too high in the rear---definitely not right. Disassambled and re-installed with factory bumpstop removed, trimmed off the "point" so a flatter surface was resting on the top of the bag (PIC 2).
Tip: leave the bumpstops installed, mark a line where to cut "level" with the ground, then remove and cut. The reason is because the bumpstop mounting point is not exactly level---but the top of the air bag is fairly level.
I used a fine-toothed sawzall blade and it was easy enough then smoothed with coarse sandpaper.
I used them this way for the past year with no real issues, but I noticed that the roughly 1"dia. bumpstop surface resting on the 3"dia. top of the air bag was actually "dimpling" in the top of the air bag when some big weight was applied to them without bumping up the pressure. The dimpling wasn't severe and in the past year it did not get any worse than I noticed when originally installed, but it was still nagging me and with hunting season coming up and me towing my little trailer around, I needed something to "spread" the load across the top of that 3"dia. air bag better...
So about about a 1.5months ago I took it all apart and did the following. There are probably 100 different helpful suggestions some of you guys may have, such as making new bumpstops, etc...but this was my quick/cheap/easy fix and it is working well.
I used some more of my old truck mud flap material, about 1/4" thick, pretty rigid, reinforced stuff, works great for everything---including, what do you know, mudflaps (CLICK HERE FOR WRITEUP (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/fender-flares-with-mudflaps-on-tracker/)), who woulda thought? ::)
I cut a pattern like this (PIC 3), shaved off a bit more of the bumpstop to level it off better than I had it before, then poked a hole in the center of the rubber disc I had just cut out, inserted a pan-head screw with flatwasher through the disc (PIC 4) and tightened it against the now-flat surface of the bumpstop (PIC 5). I also added some black roofing mastic between the two rubber surfaces to help with adhesion (just added security to help the screw).
Installed the new bumpstop assembly to the vehicle (PIC 6). Put everything back together and the diameter of the rubber disc clears the I.D. of the spring coils (PIC 7). Load/weight is distributed more evenly across the top of the bag. This has been working for over a month now and I don't see any issues with it.
I DID consider the metal screw head rubbing on the top of the bag---but the bag has some raised lettering across the top. It's gonna take years of scuffing to even get through that tough stuff...
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More pics of installation. This is how I originally had the air lines routed, but I didn't post on it until I had a chance to try it out. No issues reported here.
Drilled hole (I think 5/8"dia) in bottom spring support for air line to run through. I was going to add a grommet but it would not stay put on that thick metal---I deburred the hole. No problems
I protected the supplied rubber air line in convoluted tubing ("wire loom"). I found these little aluminum clips that I was able to mount using the brake line mounting bolts, to hold the air line/tubing in place with the brake lines (you can see these in the pics right below the spring cups).
I routed the 2 lines to where the diff breather is, and that is where I installed the "T" fitting. Then secured with zip ties to the diff breather (since I know that is the proper length as it has never stretched/pulled out).
...then over the fuel tank to the rear, routed through the factory grommet where the taillight wiring goes through to the right taillight...
Removed taillight and drilled hole in fuel filler area---hidden, protected, and works great. Careful, make sure it will fit your inflation valve, as I have a few around my house that don't fit in there with the gas cap on, I have to either use a different filler valve or remove the fuel cap. Aggravating, but I plan to have an onboard compressor with an inline valve for these bags soon.
Hope this helps the next guy with his installation!