ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Sidekick, Vitara, Geo Tracker (Gen. 1 Platform) 1989-1998 => Topic started by: Warn Industries on April 27, 2012, 07:59:09 AM
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I would suggest having the tires/wheels rebalanced and checked for out of round.
No need to find hubcentric rings, they would not help at all and probably induce even more issues as nothing is machined to be hubcentric, the Zuki's are stud centric.
Also weak, whimpy suspension link bushings can allow an oscillation to develop.
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I would suggest having the tires/wheels rebalanced and checked for out of round.
No need to find hubcentric rings, they would not help at all and probably induce even more issues as nothing is machined to be hubcentric, the Zuki's are stud centric.
Good to know about the stud-centric deal.
I'll bring the wheels/tires in and have them looked at.
- Andy
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I vote u joints. After you run it for a while, fell them.A bad one will be hot.
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I recently replaced my U-joints and forgot to mark the driveshaft. If the driveshaft isn't mounted correctly, it gets out of balance (you can see the little rectangle weights welded to it) and causes a really odd vibration like someone is pumping bass through a subwoofer. I just removed the shaft, rotated the mounting point by one each time, and found one that made the vibration go away.
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It could be broken cords in your tires. Tires do not need to be that low on tread. I had both front tires on my Grand Prix break the cords, and took it to a Garage to find the problem. Replaced all the tires and problem went away.
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I recently replaced my U-joints and forgot to mark the driveshaft. If the driveshaft isn't mounted correctly, it gets out of balance (you can see the little rectangle weights welded to it) and causes a really odd vibration like someone is pumping bass through a subwoofer. I just removed the shaft, rotated the mounting point by one each time, and found one that made the vibration go away.
There are phase alignment dots on the driveshafts. Takes the guesswork out of it.
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Check the rear shocks. Mine did just that when I had a blown shockabsorber.
Very soft shocks combined with a bad balanced tire can also get the car to shake.
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Wish I'd known about those phase alignment dots before :( Where are they located? I wasn't looking for them when the shaft was off, so I didn't notice them.
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Is there much slop in your slip yoke/ output shaft fit, output roller bearings shot?
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Took the Kick to the dunes this weekend. Drives just fine at 60mph and under, but over that, you get more and more vibration.
I'm going out of town, but hope to bring it in to the tire guy next week and start narrowing this down.
- Andy
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Was the drive shaft lengthened after the lift?
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Took the Kick to the dunes this weekend. Drives just fine at 60mph and under, but over that, you get more and more vibration.
I'm going out of town, but hope to bring it in to the tire guy next week and start narrowing this down.
- Andy
I keep checking to see what the problem was.
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Was the drive shaft lengthened after the lift?
No ... should it be for only a 2" spring lift?
Still haven't had a chance to bring it in for the tires. Hopefully this week.
- Andy
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Mine did after a 2" lift.
Brand new tires and u joints before the lift and it made it obvious for me. Just a cheesy spacer and my highway vibrations went away.
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Brought the rig into Les Schwab tire yesterday. The rebalanced the wheels/tires. He said they were off by a bit (he said each wheel was off an ounce or so). He said the tires are showing signs of age and may be getting out of round (used BFG A/Ts). I'll try to take the Kick out this weekend for some freeway testing to see if this was the culprit. I might have just thrown a weight wheeling.
- Andy
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That is why I don't put weights on my wheeling rigs. :P
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That is why I don't put weights on my wheeling rigs. :P
I wish I didn't have to worry about it. Sure enough, the shaking is still there. So tires or u-joints sounds like the next variables.
-Andy
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Also, just rotated the tires, and vibration is still there ...
FYI, I am still on the original shocks (143,000 miles). Using the BDS strut extensions for the lift. Any chance it could be worn struts?
I do not get a bunch of wobble in the steering wheel, however. Just the whole thing starts shaking.
- Andy
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FWIW
When I replaced my struts they would collapse on their own with very little resistance on up travel, and didn't have vibrations.
There have to be a dozen ZW members in the greater Portland area, get with one and try their tires to eliminate that threat. You may have to spring for a brew, but shouldn't cost much. After that changing out worn parts can get expensive looking for what is causing this issue.
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bent rear axle?
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bent rear axle?
I'd think that I'd feel a bent axle at under 60 MPH, no?
- Andy
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i didn't feel mine until 60 or so. it too felt like a tire out of balance.
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i didn't feel mine until 60 or so. it too felt like a tire out of balance.
That's good to know.
Really got under the truck this weekend and took a look around. There did seem to be a bit of play towards the front of the rear drive shaft. Not sure if that is normal or not. I'll likely take the rear shaft off and check things out next. It's been slow going lately, but I'll get to the bottom of this eventually!
- Andy
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Interested in seeing what fixes yours as mine does the same thing and I cant figure it out.
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Interested in seeing what fixes yours as mine does the same thing and I cant figure it out.
I drove the vehicle a couple hundred miles on Tuesday for a WARN photo shoot; all of that was highway (50-65 MPH speed zones). This actually gave me a really good chance to try and get an idea of what's happening. Sure enough, after 60 MPH, the vibration appears; the driver's door starts to shudder a bit, and as you increase speed, it gets worse.
Now, with that being said, sometimes I'd look down at the speedometer, and I'd be going 70 and the vibration wasn't that bad. Other times at 70 it feels like I'm driving a mobile paint shaker. And it's the whole truck vibrating; not getting much vibration through the steering wheel. I could see the driver's side rear wheel in my mirror, but the power mirrors down't work and the flap around with the vibration, so no diagnosis there.
So basically, it's seems to come and go above 60, although it's mostly there. On a side note, driving into a 35-40 mph headwind at 65 was a deafening experience!
I'm still betting it's u-joints. Since the 'Kick isn't my daily, I haven't been inclined to prioritize getting the drive shaft taken off. But I've got a five hour drive (each way) trip with it coming up at the end of July to the Overland Rallies and Workshops (http://www.overlandrally.com/Overland_Rallies_and_Workshops/Northwest.html) in Leavenworth, WA, so I'd like to have it taken care of by then.
Bonus pic from the photoshoot on Tuesday:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/Sidekick/gorge.jpg)
- Andy
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I tried replacing my u joints first to find it still shook, but I did get it figured out. Also I have managed to find u joints with grease fittings if you want a part number and where to get them just let me know if you replace yours.
I know you said you just had the tires balanced but I took mine and had them "road force" balanced and it is finally smooth. Biggest thins was this place put weights on both front and back of the wheel which most places won't do on an aftermarket wheel. The tires on mine were just installed and balanced two weeks ago, and it has shaken on every tire I put on the truck. But this was the first road force and first place to put weights on the outside. It maybe worth a shot. Good luck with it.
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Well, I'm pretty sure I've nailed down the vibration: It looks like the wheels are slightly bent. We put the Kick on the rack and and put the vehicle in gear to watch to see what the wheels/tires were doing. Sure enough, you can see the wheels moving a bit. At first I thought it was just the tires out of round, but my friend (and mechanic) pointed out that the wheels were actually a bit out of round.
The drive line looks fine; nice and true, though.
- Andy
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At least you now know everything else is in good shape. :)
What did you hit to break the wheels?
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At least you now know everything else is in good shape. :)
What did you hit to break the wheels?
I don't think I hit anything; at least nothing that'd bend wheels. However, I bought the wheels used, so who knows about the previous guy. So long as the truck's under 60 MPH, it's not even noticeable. The Kick rarely sees 60+, but when it does, it vibrates so bad you could thoroughly mix cans of paint in it!
I suppose, in theory, the axles could be hosed, but I'd doubt all four axles are messed up.
EDIT: One thing I should check is if all of the lug nuts are conical style. I want to make sure the wheels are centered properly.
- Andy
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I could see a little shake in mine when it was running up on the stands.
If the wheels are not dynamically balanced correctly with weights on both front and back it can cause a slight wobble in the wheel at speed. Are you seeing it move at a low speed on when its turning at a high speed? A lot of places are only capable of a static balance or will only do a static balance to aftermarket wheels in order to keep from having to put weights on the front.
Quick little explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_balance#Dynamic_balance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_balance#Dynamic_balance)
Good luck with it.
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I could see a little shake in mine when it was running up on the stands.
If the wheels are not dynamically balanced correctly with weights on both front and back it can cause a slight wobble in the wheel at speed. Are you seeing it move at a low speed on when its turning at a high speed? A lot of places are only capable of a static balance or will only do a static balance to aftermarket wheels in order to keep from having to put weights on the front.
Quick little explanation.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_balance#Dynamic_balance[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_balance#Dynamic_balance[/url])
Good luck with it.
We ran the wheelspeed up to 70 mph; we also just put it in 4th gear and let it run on its own. You could see it in both scenarios, but even at slower speeds, you could see there was some oblong movement as if either the wheel was bent or it wasn't centered on the hub. I'd find it very odd that all wheels were out of round. This leads me to believe the wheels might not be centered correctly. They wheels are US Wheel Type 37-5755 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/USW-37-5755/), which are are not hubcentric and require conical lugs.
I brought the wheels (both times) to a local chain of wheel/tire stores that I've been to many times. They use a high-speed balancer; not sure what type.
I will check to make sure the rig has conical lugs and that it's seated right. After that, I might bring it to "the other" tire shop and have them look at it.
- Andy
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I have the same issue, but only above 65. Like to know what you find too.
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I had a very similar noise for almost a year after installing my lift. I put in the AE4.5" lift in and asked and posted up about pinions angles. I was told universally that standard "U"joints need the pinion angles to match the TC output, while double cardane driveshafts(cv) require the diff to point at the TC output.
I talked to Geoff at Zukinations about this just recently and he stated that they recommend that the pinion needs to be pointed upwards but not directly at the TC output, he uses an angle of about 10-13 degrees when measured on the oil return flat under the pinion snout, this is approx 2/3rds of the angle required to match the pinion and TC output angles.
Since I used those specs the noise has gone away!
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So a bit of an update. I brought the Kick to America's Tire to talk with someone there about the wheels. They were quite helpful, actually.
He took one look at my BFGoodrich All-Terrains and said, "Those are 22 year old tires." (Sure enough, the date stamp was on there.) I told him about the wheels being a bit out of round, and he said that it was likely the tires doing most of the shimmying. We took a wheel off, threw it on their Road Force balancer, and sure enough, the wheel is slightly out of round, but the tires were even more so. You could see it on the balancer that the tread was moving around quite a bit. I asked him if the wheels look bad, and he said that the wheels didn't look that bad, and that just new tires would likely help a lot. I believe he looked at the radial run-out, which was 0.06.
Now, I told him that I don't want to shod bent wheels with new tires and have to replace the wheels then pay for mounting/dismounting. He said that he thought the tires would make a noticeable difference. He did say that the tires were very old and very hard, too. (Lesson learned here, actually. I got the BFGs for $250 used. The tread looked tore up a bit, but I figured that it was due to off-road or gravel use; tire guy said it's ozone cracking. I probably should've just bought new.)
Anyway, I decided to try some new tires. I ended up ordering some Kumho Road Venture MT KL71s in 235s. So, we'll see what happens next.
- Andy
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Surprised the sidewalls were not all weather/UV cracked for 22 year old tires! :o
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Surprised the sidewalls were not all weather/UV cracked for 22 year old tires! :o
So was I. I did not want to buy old tires. The sidewalls were surprisingly good, but the tread itself was craggy. The guy that I bought them from a year-and-a-half ago told me there weren't very old. Shame on me for falling for it. I should've went with my gut on that one. Just remember: buyer beware on used tires.
I'm still contemplating buying new steel wheels so I wouldn't have to worry about it at all.
- Andy
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I believe the run out tolerance on new aluiminum wheels is 0.05 so your 0.06 doesn't really seem that bad. Hopefully some new rubber will make it better for you.
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I believe the run out tolerance on new aluiminum wheels is 0.05 so your 0.06 doesn't really seem that bad. Hopefully some new rubber will make it better for you.
Well that's good to know. I was trying to research tolerances yesterday. This leads to a much deeper discussion on lateral (side to side) and radial (up and down) run out. I think he was measuring the lateral (the .06 number).
- Andy
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Well, good news and not-so-good news.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/Sidekick/Kumho-Road-Venture-KL71.jpg)
The good news is that the Kumho Road Venture MT KL71s came in. They look great, and I can't wait to take 'em off the pavement.
The bad news: The vibration is still there at 60+. It's not as bad, but it is still there and very noticeable. So, I'd say the last thing to do is get some different wheels.
I will say that under 60, even with MTs, the ride is smoother. The BFGs needed to be replaced anyway (they'd still be find for someone that just goes wheeling or use on a farm, etc.).
- Andy
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Not sure if you checked this or if someone already mentioned it, but have you removed and checked your driveshaft and U-Joints?
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Check that there is very little play on your transfer case output bearings/slip joint, I thought that changing the pinion angle had solved the noises on mine, but alas it only changed the MPH that they occured(from 55mph to above 65mph) and there is some slop on my slip yoke/output bearing fit.
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Rebuilt my drive shaft and had it balanced, that made some difference. Last weekend I had my wheels re-balanced. Pulled off all the hammer on edge weights and had them use stick on weights, only on the inside of the rim. HUGE difference. Smooth running up to 85 mph.
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Well, new wheels/tires installed, and the vibration is gone. had it up to about 75, and no more issues. It's as smooth as a lifted Sidekick on MTs is going to get.
I think it was mostly the tires, actually. However, it was time to swap out the wheels anyway. Went to a 15x7 vs. the 15x8s (which I didn't know where 15x8s until the tires were off of them and I saw the stamping).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/Sidekick/Sidekick_black_wheels.jpg)
- Andy
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Looks good, actually like that dark wheels look. Hope to do mine in black soon.
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Hi
Glad to hear your problem is solved, plus your rig looks good on the new wheel/tire combo. How are the tires regarding road noise on the highway?
I have fidled with the pinion angle on mine and the vibration is less now. I am going to turn the pionion down slightly more than it is now and hopefully the vibration will go on mine as well.
Best regards,
Tryggvi
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Hi
Glad to hear your problem is solved, plus your rig looks good on the new wheel/tire combo. How are the tires regarding road noise on the highway?
I have fidled with the pinion angle on mine and the vibration is less now. I am going to turn the pionion down slightly more than it is now and hopefully the vibration will go on mine as well.
Best regards,
Tryggvi
Thanks!
I just got back from a 650+ mile road trip last week (went up to the Overland Rallies & Workshops in Leavenworth, shot over to Yakima, down through Goldendale, and back to Portland). The vibration stayed away. Tires are actually pretty quiet for MTs. In the dirt they worked very well; not too much mud up in super-dry Eastern Washington, but I did go through a couple of small muddy sections and you could tell they cleaned out pretty well, since they flung mud way more than my ATs ever did!
- Andy
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/Sidekick/overlandkick.jpg)