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master clyinder upgrade

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Offline bentparts

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master clyinder upgrade
« on: November 01, 2007, 02:58:20 PM »
A while back I upgraded my front brakes to the 4 door calipers and rotors, on my 2 door, 95, 16v, abs equipped Tracker, with good results. I'd like to upgrade to the larger brake booster and master cylinder off the four door as well. I got a used 4 door setup from aftermarket 4x4, and am wondering if I need to run it through the abs system like the old master cylinder. It no longer runs the abs, as the tone ring was removed when I installed my new gears and arb locker. Anyone know how I can install the 4 door brake booster and master cylinder and skip the abs crap, without causing any problems?  It almost looks like I could connect the brake lines, front and rear, directly to the new master cylinder, and remove the abs stuff altogether. It looks like just some tweaking of the brake lines and it would fit. Any help/opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Offline cj

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 04:00:46 PM »
If you don't need the ABS then just connect directly as the models without ABS do. While you have it there could you see what size the master cylinder is?
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Offline bentparts

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 05:44:27 PM »
How could I measure the bore size, that would require seperateing the master cylinder from the brake booster wouldn't it? I need to Check my fsm before I do, probably get to it tommorow.
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2007, 05:45:02 AM »
Quote from: bentparts on November 01, 2007, 05:44:27 PM
How could I measure the bore size, that would require seperateing the master cylinder from the brake booster wouldn't it? I need to Check my fsm before I do, probably get to it tommorow.

Yes and probably dismantling the m/c too unless the size is cast into it. However if the outer diameter is bigger then its a pretty safe bet that the inner is too. I do know someone posted the sizes up some time ago. I'm not familiar with the ABS setup (it wasn't available here) but I would think that you would have to replace it with a modulator rather than going direct to the rear brakes.
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2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org
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joesteak

Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2007, 06:12:13 AM »
Are you sure the bore is bigger? I got this from napaonline.com . It lists a 7/8" bore, with no choice between 2 door / 4 door models.

Item#: TS 112590
Price: $77.99
Core: $22.50
tax and shipping not included
Disclaimer: The stated price may vary from the in store price and may change at anytime.
Attributes:
# of Line Ports:3
Bore Size:0.87500
Finish:Rust-Preventative Finish
Line Thread Size:M10-1.0
M10-1.0
M10-1.0
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Offline bentparts

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2007, 01:57:54 PM »
I think Joesteak is correct, about the only thing that seems different is that the vacume booster is much larger, the master cylinder looks the same. I have to give a check and measure athe outside diameters first.
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2007, 02:17:55 PM »
Quote from: joesteak on November 03, 2007, 06:12:13 AM
Are you sure the bore is bigger? I got this from napaonline.com . It lists a 7/8" bore, with no choice between 2 door / 4 door models.

AFAIK 7/8" is the bigger one. It may well be fitted on some SWB models, I really couldn't say. I know mine (SWB) is 13/16" because I stripped it and measured it. Ed has also posted that the M/Cs are either 7/8" or 13/16" so that tallies with what he said.
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2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org
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Offline JoeCool

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2007, 09:36:27 PM »
As a small note going up in MC diameter lowers out put pressure. (harder pedal with less travel)- Which may be a good thing to change pedal feel.- 100 lbs  pushed onto a 1 square inch piston will make 200  lbs at the calipers over a 2 square inch piston. 100 lbs over a 1/2" piston will make 400 lbs on the same  2" caliper pistons.

To dissemble a master cylinder take it to your shop bench (not you kitchen table) clamp it into a vice and push forward on the back with a wooden dowel and remove the circlip.  it's spring loaded so be careful of flying parts. Steel housings can be carefully honed aluminum can not. if gunk comes out you should probably replace with new. Find out where the proportioning valve body is (integrated with the ABS modal or not) because a mc is not split front to rear rather the front port is both front and rear as is the rear port. Should one seal fail you will still have one front and one diagonally opposed rear. the valve body fixes all this as well as differ front and rear pressures as well as a hold off valve to keep the front calipers from engaging before the rear shoes make contact. And a residual check valve to keep a mild pressure 5-7 psi ish on the rear to keep the shoes close. That check valve should be removed when going to 4 wheel discs.


What all this means; make sure of where the valve body is and ditch the ABS unit completely. Be careful when using second hand hydrolic parts cus corrosion can be very dangerous. Be sure the fittings are the same not 3/8th  GM ABS 10 mm MC or some junk. (oh the head aches)  >:( 

Flare tool kits take some getting used to and never bend sharper than about the diameter of a 50 cent piece. Be careful not no kink it!


By the way I've done the same caliper swap on my  non ABS 90 kick and love it, I'm worried about the heat when I start descending Powder Mountain Road this winter, but it does have more stopping power. Let me know how the pedal feel changes and good luck.     NMc




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Offline bentparts

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2007, 04:24:01 AM »
Thanks for the detailed notes, Although now it's making me wonder if it's worth it!
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Offline JoeCool

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2007, 04:32:55 PM »
Don't let me discourage you.  I throw that out there because I don't know specifically about your kick but I want to educate against some of the head aches that could come up.

If you are looking for more stopping power I think I would look at a larger or dual diaphragm brake booster.  As it happens my MC is starting to leak and I will have to replace/ rebuild here shortly too.
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5psi turbo '90 2dr 5spd 8v Tracker, Lt235s, 1" spacers, Rocker Rails, Warn Hubs, Custom half door,--GONE!
New, Sammi Tintop
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2007, 05:00:09 AM »
Quote from: JoeCool on November 04, 2007, 04:32:55 PM
Don't let me discourage you.  I throw that out there because I don't know specifically about your kick but I want to educate against some of the head aches that could come up.

If you are looking for more stopping power I think I would look at a larger or dual diaphragm brake booster.  As it happens my MC is starting to leak and I will have to replace/ rebuild here shortly too.

Well I can't fit a bigger booster in mine, I already need to trim the bottom battery moulding to clear the booster and get it to fit in the tray. I was looking at changing the m/c to return the brake travel/feel to stock. The LWB brakes take around 20% more fluid than the old SWB brakes so you get a fair bit more travel (20%, lol). I don't have the ABS and my m/c has the two front ports to the front brakes and the single rear port to the rear brakes.
Someone burnt down the local breakers so I need to wait till they get some more vehicles in to break.
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2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org
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Offline bentparts

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Re: master clyinder upgrade
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2007, 06:34:55 AM »
The pedal travel and feel is also what I'm trying to regain. That 20% more pedal travel is the real problem. It stops, just not as quick and hard. It looks like I have room for the larger brake booster from the 4 door, and removing the abs valve shoudn't be too much trouble. Am I going to have to add a modulater as was suggested earlier in this thread? Also connecting the exsisting brake lines to the 4 door setup, is it the 2 front brake lines to the front 2 ports, rear to the 1 rear port on the 4 door master? thanks for the replies!
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