Hey folks, looking for some tech knowledge.

The 96 16v I pulled from the scrap yard was missing the dizzy. I am trying to determine if the ECM recieves input from the crank angle sensor for spark, fuel, or both. Basically, does the dizzy rely solely on cam position.

TIA

I know OBDII has, and needs, a Crank Position Sensor.

I bought an OBDI Engine and had to switch a couple things before putting it in.

More specifically, I want to stay away from wiring the crank sensor.  I am trying to run this engine with Megasquirt, not the factory ECU whatsoever.

I am just not sure if the 96' setup is like older domestic motors where the dizzy/spark/timing is independant from any 'computer' and knows TDC by cam position.  I dont have a dizzy to try so i cant go this route without spending money.

TIA

Let me see if I understand what you're attempting ...

You have a 1.6l, 16v engine with no distributor, and you want to run it with a Megasquirt - you don't want to use the crank sensor, and you don't want to buy a distributor.

I've never used a Megasquirt - but - it doesn't matter what engine management system you choose, it MUST have some sort of timing reference - either some sort of crank position sensing - or some sort of cam position sensing.

I don't understand your reluctance to buy a distributor, but, lets assume you plan on running a distributorless igntion system - either two coils in a wasted spark configuration (which by the way Suzuki did use on the later versions of the 1.6l, 16v engine) or quad coils - you're going to need a sensor either on the crank or on the cam to tell it which coil to fire when.

Let's go the other way - you're going to run a distributor to handle the ignition - and lets assume you can find one completely self contained with no connection to the ECU.  You still need a sensor on either the crank or the cam to tell the ECU at a minimum, how fast the engine is turning because that determinesthe when or how often fuel gets injected - if you run batch fire injection - or if you're going to run sequential injection, it also determines the where or which injector to fire.

Are you getting the point here?  Your ECU MUST have a timing input from either the crank or the cam - the easiest way is probably to get it off the distributor which is how Suzuki does it.  You don't HAVE to do it that way, but if you don't, then you're going to need another sensor somewhere - the advantage of an aftermarket ECU is that you have a wider range of choices as to how to do the sensing - but it still has to be done.

Oh - to answer your question - the 96 setup is not "independent from any computer" - it is an input to the computer, and since the computer controls the igntion advance and determines when the plugs are fired, in a way, it's also an output from the computer.

I thought you had this thing running with the coil packs.  Are you trying to change the programming?

Acks Faq has the Factory Service Manual you need for the 96 engine, you can find it over at http://www.acksfaq.com/trackerfsm.htm.    If you look at 6D-8 there is a picture of the distributor, I believe the camshaft sensor is built into there.  That is what tells the stock computer system where TDC is.

The crankshaft position sensor is located inside the oil pump, there should be a spot on the front of the oil pan it fits into.  The 96 and up have a different crank pulley then the 95, it has the notches on it similar to what you did with the sensor on the main pulley.

Thanks for the quick responses guys.

Yes i currently am running wasted spark on 300m coil on plugs using a 32-1 crank mounted wheel and Ford VR sensor I made a mount for.  MS is controlling fuel and spark. I ran this breifly (appx 30 miles in all) before having the timing/cranking issues I have had now for the past month.

For starters, VR sensors are super sensative to electrical noise.  Each one can be completely different.  I worry about reliability on back roads with the Megasquirt trying to do the signal conditioning itself. I also am not happy with my custom mount location low on the engine since I run through mud here and there.

Option 1 is my preference... for now its to get the 96 distributor and use Megasquirt to control fuel only.  Yes I will need a tach signal from the dizzy.  I just am not sure if the distributor's pickup/cam sensor inside the dizzy itself knows TDC or if it rely's on the factory mounted VR sensor and 5 tooth wheel.  I know the cam turns twice the crank but some dizzy's have a seperate pickup inside... say 1 hole and sensor for TDC.  I may have confused my reply.  I dont mind buying a dizzy but I would like to know whats ahead to get things in harmony before spending the cash.

Option 2 is I have an EDIS-4 and can use that on my existing setup (with some changes to the MS board and external wiring).  Since the Ford VR sensor and EDIS used to be a match, the EDIS will take care of the signal conditioning for me.

Looks to me like 6D4-2 in the FSM does show a 4 tooth cam position wheel and pickup sensor. 4 teeth with none missing and lack of having an additional single tooth tells me the dizzy alone has no clue where TDC is.  I guess this makes sense as the ECM controls timing as you say and there is no manual adjustment on the dizzy itself.  Any options for a compatable vac. advance dizzy?

Thanks again!

The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly, the 96'+ use electronic ignition advance with integral coil, while the earlier distributors use mechanical and vacuum advance with a seperate coil.

 

The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly, the 96'+ use electronic ignition advance with integral coil, while the earlier distributors use mechanical and vacuum advance with a seperate coil.

 

I was tempted to make that very same statement last night    what he actually means is that with the distributor alone the ECU will have no clue where TDC is - and I believe the same is also true for the crank position sensor alone.

A crank mount wheel with a missing tooth - which is what he's using - is probably how I would have approached it.

I think the "pre 96" distributors tilt (as in to the left/right of the cylinder head) & rotate (clockwise/counter-clockwise) the other way - I think I've read that they can be made to work by swapping the gear - but don't quote me on that, I could be wrong.

The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly,

In other words, your saying in the 96 electronic advance distributor, it will fire plugs without any input from other sensors or ECU (but not be able to advance timing based on them)?   

But wiith only a 4 tooth pickup in the dizzy, it wouldn't know which rotation the crank was at as the cam is 2x the speed right?

I was tempted to make that very same statement last night    what he actually means is that with the distributor alone the ECU will have no clue where TDC is - and I believe the same is also true for the crank position sensor alone.

A crank mount wheel with a missing tooth - which is what he's using - is probably how I would have approached it.

If I can use the 96 dizzy (or alternative), all MS needs is a tach signal.  I wouldn't be able to control timing, only fuel maps.  This is what I am after at this point.  I want to simplify things until I can figure out how I want to control spark down the road.  My sami distributor/coil could possibly work but the housings are different nor will the sami dizzy fit the tracker housing.

I think the "pre 96" distributors tilt (as in to the left/right of the cylinder head) & rotate (clockwise/counter-clockwise) the other way - I think I've read that they can be made to work by swapping the gear - but don't quote me on that, I could be wrong.

By tilt/rotate do you mean to advance/retard timing?

Does anyone know if the pre 96 dizzy and housing will 'mechanically' fit the 96+ head (with or without swapping cam gear)?  That sounds like the ticket to me.

Quote from: talonxracer on September 28, 2011, 06:01:05 AM

The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly,

In other words, your saying in the 96 electronic advance distributor, it will fire plugs without any input from other sensors or ECU (but not be able to advance timing based on them)?  

But wiith only a 4 tooth pickup in the dizzy, it wouldn't know which rotation the crank was at as the cam is 2x the speed right?

The confusion here is in your concept of TDC - you are looking at it from a "combustion" event point of view - which is incorrect.

TDC or top dead center is the point at which the piston is at the top of it's stroke - it has nothing to do with igntion or injection - it occurs twice per combustion event - once between the exhaust & intake strokes and a second time between the compression & power strokes - your difficulty is that you need to know not when a cylinder is at TDC but when it is at TDC on the compression stroke because that's when you need to ignite the mixture.

The distributor ALWAYS knows which cylinder is on the compression stroke - it's the one the rotor is pointing to.

By tilt/rotate do you mean to advance/retard timing?

No - the tilt refers to which direction the cap and leads go.  Stand infront of the engine and look at the distributor - if I recall correctly the 16v distributor is tilted top to the left, and the 8v distributor tilts top to the right.

The rotation is clockwise/counterclockwise looking down at the rotor - the 8v rotates one way (don't remember which) and the 16v rotates the other - and yes - this does impact the advance/retard of the timing.

Does anyone know if the pre 96 dizzy and housing will 'mechanically' fit the 96+ head (with or without swapping cam gear)?  That sounds like the ticket to me.

That's the piece I'm not certain on - I have this recollection of being told that it can be done - but I have not tried it personally.

I'm not sure about the mounting for the 16V, I have one of these dizzys in an 8V motor, the camshaft position sensor is a hall effect sensor with 4 vanes to trigger it. The ignitor is triggered from the ECU, it will not run independently like on some US vehicles.

On the 16v you need the ECM to get a spark, the ECM is what decides the timing.  I will try and get my Tracker FSM this weekend and take a look at it.  There is an entire section on the firing and fuel injections system.

When we 'advance' the timing we are manually moving the distributor forward of advanced of where the motor thinks it should be.  If you connect an ODBCII computer you can actually watch the timing adjusted live.  You can then connect a timing light to verify that it matches what the computer thinks it currently is.

  Good lord man, how hard would it be just to put stock stuff back in it and make it run right ? I'm gettin a headache just trying to figure out why you want to do this in the first place.