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Turbo and head gasket

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Offline zuki1018

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Turbo and head gasket
« on: February 14, 2012, 02:10:23 PM »
I am about to order the ARP head stud kit for my 16v.  My question is related to buying another head gasket as I had to pull my head a week ago.

Just a quick back drop for those who do not know my project.  I will soon be installing a used T25 from a Saab.  Recent rebuilt 96' tracker 16v .20 over pistons, .015 on the head, stainless exhaust valves running MS1 and a wideband 02.

I am not building a monster engine... just something different and fun.  I am shooting for an occasional 12psi... but more like 5-7.

Relating to copper head gaskets, some sites mention the need for a divot on the head while others do not.  Some sites recommend them only for high compression or anything over 15psi.  Some say they are a pickle to seal coolant/oil. I do like that I can reuse them (to a certain degree) and not have to clean a normal gasket off the block when I pull the head down the road.

So my main question is should I stick to a regular gasket or lower the compression a bit and go copper?  They are available in 0.8/1/1.5/2.3 mm.  Does anyone have an appx. compression ratio for each of those thicknesses on the 16v?  I dont have all the numbers handy to do the math.

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 06:09:25 PM »
The stock OEM head gasket and stock compression are fine up to 7/8 lbs. After that I'd say you may be pushing it on a stock gasket,  but for the occasional 12 lb run, I'd be more concerned with melting the piston crowns.  If you have your MS dialed in that shouldn't be a problem though. IMO, I would stay as close to stock compression as possible, the time your actually on boost is miniscule, especially at the occasional 12lb level, compared to the amount of time your just driving around normally, low in the rpm band. You'll need all the low end power these little engines make, lowering the compression will only make it more anemic when not boosting.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 05:46:59 AM »
Quote
the time your actually on boost is miniscule, especially at the occasional 12lb level, compared to the amount of time your just driving around normally

Very good point.  I cant wait to see where boost lands in the RPM range with this setup.  My old 280z T3/T4 didn't hit full boost until 3800.

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 09:36:05 AM »
Depending on the size of your impeller, you should start seeing usuable boost around 2700 rpm.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline rbparker

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 09:05:07 PM »
I'm sure you know this but the lower the compression the longer it takes for the turbo to spool. I would try getting the power to come on as soon as possible in a 1.6L designed for 4x4. Of coarse high compression means low boost.

Can you find a metal layered gasket like kinetic makes?

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 07:32:25 AM »
I'm sure you know this but the lower the compression the longer it takes for the turbo to spool. I would try getting the power to come on as soon as possible in a 1.6L designed for 4x4. Of coarse high compression means low boost.

Can you find a metal layered gasket like kinetic makes?

Agreed.  I definately want boost at the lowest possible RPM in sacrifice for a higher/top boost level. As mentioned.

I didn't realize the copper unit was so expensive (in any thickness including stock). 


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Offline mrdezyne

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 08:41:40 AM »
Do you know the AR ration of this Saab Turbo?  Making sure it is sized right is a key to your powerband question...

The smaller the AR the quicker it will spool to boost, small AR = power down low, a larger AR = power at higher RPM... That is a very simplified version, there is more to it than that of course...

The A/R in a relationship that is obtained when dividing the interior area of the turbine where the inner walls are found, through the turbine housing radio from the center to the tongue as the illustration indicates.

A/R values are expressed as .35, .47, .68, .84, 1.00, 1.15, etc.

A small A/R indicates a small interior volume in the small turbine and a large A/R indicates a greater volume.

At a minimum A/R the motor's response is produced at small revolutions per minute but at high revolutions we will not achieve an adequate caudal. We should always find a compromise between achieving the lowest response possible and have enough caudal at high revolutions. The picture below is for reference:

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Offline rbparker

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 08:45:13 AM »
...meant cometic and no they don't.
Found this though, it is a few years old.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=45273

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 08:50:04 AM »
Do you know the AR ration of this Saab Turbo?  Making sure it is sized right is a key to your powerband question...

The smaller the AR the quicker it will spool to boost, small AR = power down low, a larger AR = power at higher RPM... That is a very simplified version, there is more to it than that of course...

The A/R in a relationship that is obtained when dividing the interior area of the turbine where the inner walls are found, through the turbine housing radio from the center to the tongue as the illustration indicates.

A/R values are expressed as .35, .47, .68, .84, 1.00, 1.15, etc.

A small A/R indicates a small interior volume in the small turbine and a large A/R indicates a greater volume.

At a minimum A/R the motor's response is produced at small revolutions per minute but at high revolutions we will not achieve an adequate caudal. We should always find a compromise between achieving the lowest response possible and have enough caudal at high revolutions. The picture below is for reference:


Yeah its Garrett T25 with .46 compressor and .48 turbine.  Doing the math and comparing it to the efficiency maps it a pretty suitable turbo for the 1.6 till around 12psi.  I think the Saab is a 2.0/2.2 somewhere if I remember correctly.

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 09:20:11 AM »
...meant cometic and no they don't.
Found this though, it is a few years old.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=45273


I followed to carparts.com link.  They do sell a Felpro gasket "set" that is mls $112.00.

also
http://www.pt2w.com/srd/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=73&zenid=c4fkidmdic25ra8jq8ifcn8qq1

No listing on whats its made from or by whom.  Email sent with those questions.

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Offline mrdezyne

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »
Sounds good, I found this chart a good source for easy sizing...

(No idea why it posted my pics twice???)

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/sites/default/files/Turbo%20Matrix%20.pdf

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:26:42 AM by mrdezyne »

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Turbo and head gasket
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 09:48:15 AM »
Is my math correct here... i keep overthinking i guess.

96 tracker 16v is 75mm bore... oversized pistons by .020 gives it 75.5mm bore  ...so i need to order a gasket for a bore of 76mm ?  (Available sizes are 74, 75, 76mm)