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ECU - Computer

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Offline speedytang

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ECU - Computer
« on: February 03, 2004, 08:32:37 PM »
Has anyone reverse engineered the computer on the Tracker/Sidekick. I was thinking of getting a computer from the junk yard and see if I can pull the ROM-EEPROM data and figure out the code to allow modifications. I have a turbo handy and the exhaust figured out and looks to be a really easy deal to do but need a way to change the fuel map for the TBI under boost and the idle table using a MAP sensor to regulate. I can setup a standalone fuel injection system but using the stock pieces would be really nice. So if anyone has heard any thing let me know and all of us can benefit in the end.
Thank You
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2004, 04:58:44 AM »
The stock TBI is a 50 PPH flow, and is not big
enough for more than 4 PSI boost |removethispart|@ 90 PSI
fuel pressure.

I just finished the grafting of port injector bosses
onto the stock 8V intake, a little smoothing up of
the ports and got a fuel rail from a 1.9L Ford Escort.

The fuel rail is not quite the right width but works ok,
there might be a better match out there but I don't
know off hand what would be.

I also nabbed a set of 35 PPH injectors from a Turbo
Thunderbird 2.3L so I know there is plenty of fuel
available.  I also built the MegaSquirt EFI computer
which will handle the boost chore, the stock EFI will
take care of the cold start, idle, and up to 1 PSI on
the boost scale.

What is your available turbo from ??? any from the
Subaru 1.8 and Mazda 1.6 motors should work well,
I expect to have some pics today and I'll report on
the power increase with 8 PSI boost, I can't wait  ;D
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Offline speedytang

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 06:28:20 AM »
Eclipse-Talon turbo. The Megasquirt I have setup before but I rather use the stock setup for many reasons and the first being able to find parts when out of town or running the back country, The Megasquirt does not have a limp home mode and also in my past dealings (applications) has not been reliable enough. I can change the injector in the throttle body but I also can change the duty cycle if I can get into the EEPROM. The factory duty cycle is usually only 40% so I can move that up and 6psi is all the 1.6 can probably handle anyways and that would put me at about 135hp which will make up for any tire size without doing a gear change and still give excellent MPG. I guess the Thunderbird injectors does not really make sense to me if your injector size calculations are correct because the 30lb Ford injectors can handle 400 hp no problem but your listing the TBI on the Suzuki has a higher rate than them which does not sound correct. I just purchased the Tracker to give me a winter vehicle so that my Mustang can stay parked but I just can't leave things alone and right now my shop is empty since my car is ready for Florida at the end of the month and my customers cars are done. Just killing time, so any input is great and maybe we can work together and come up with a nice combination. If you need help with the Megasquirt software setup let me know.
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2004, 01:58:25 PM »
TBI is a single injector |removethispart|@ 50 PPH
T-Bird has 4 x 35 PPH injectors

Stock 1.9 Ford Escort uses 17 PPH x 4 injectors
What injector can you change into the TBI
I've been looking for a bigger injector, but I
need about 100 PPH for the HP output I'm looking for.

The 35 PPH injectors will be able to run at a low duty
cycle should be low, as I'm keeping the stock injector
also.

I finished the manifold, but I got some vacuum leaks
and one fuel leak  >:(  I rushed this too much, now
I'm going to have to see if I can get away with silicone
or if I have to build a custom fuel rail, I'm working on
that tomorrow.

I'd like to know what you did with the MegaSquirt and
programing, you say it's not reliable, I wonder if V2.0
is better, which one did you have/build ??

I still need to finalize the VE table, the computer isn't
in the car yet, but I've had the MS hooked to the Laptop
and it's working  :)
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2004, 02:01:47 PM »
BTW The Zuke computer is a Mitsubishi
at least in my 89' Kick
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Offline speedytang

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2004, 08:15:52 PM »
The injector quote still makes no since because your still only firing a injector at a time on the compression cycle. You are still only using one 35 compared to one 50. I will try to come up with a conversion for the injectors because a Turbo Bird auto only uses like a 24lb injectors and the stick car uses 30lb or something close. What color are the injectors you are using. This is probably the only way you can get your data correct for the software. The problem with the Mega was when it gets dampness in the air we had hardware problems and when it gets hot we had to deal with cold soldier joints showing up. The Throttle Body injectors I can get from Holley or Bosch but I need to look at mine and get a part number to xcross reference for size and move up to a 20% bigger injector and then I would not need any software changes on the computer and just make sure I keep a eye on the Fuel Mixture on the top end on the Dyno and figure out the under 2000 rpm bogg that I will probably get unless the Suzuki computer can adjust its range that far with readings from the O2 sensor. If this thing was just not a Speed Density system it would be a easy fix.
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2004, 11:00:54 PM »
Quote
The problem with the Mega was when it gets dampness in the air we had hardware problems
When it gets hot we had to deal with cold soldier joints showing up.
Unless the Suzuki computer can adjust its range that far with readings from the O2 sensor
Quote


1 Thats what conformal coating is for
2 Who put this thing together? Cold solder (dry?) joints shouldn't be a problem if its built properly
3 No it can't because the 02 sensor id only used under 'gentle' running, under power the mixture needs to be richer so the ECU reverts to its preset map
4 Have you ever attempted to reverse engineer software you will probably find it easier to datalog the stock box and then write new code to replicate it.
You are assuming that there is a seperate E(E)PROM. If
its stored internally in FLASH or EEPROM then it will be protected
5 You aren't firing one injector at a time on the compression stroke but firing asynchronously, the ECU has no way of knowing which stroke the engine is on.
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2004, 03:14:23 AM »
The injectors are brown top Bosch if
you can find the spec on them I'd
appreciate it, I have not been able
to get it the # is 0 280 150 360

To re state I am running 4 x 30 or 35
PPH injectors, I added bosses to the
intake manifold, plus I am running the
stock 50 PPH injector for a total of 170
or 190 PPH total flow capacity, I think that's
enough to get 160 HP, Ya think ???

The Bosch injectors will be powered by the Mega,
the stock injector will be powered by the Stock ECU
this way I can run stock emissions up until boost
starts to kick in and I start spanking Honda ricer boys.

I need to redo the VE map I think to compensate for the
Stock ECU input of fuel, I left that out when I calculated the
numbers for the MegaSquirt to inject.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 03:15:10 AM by wildgoody »
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Offline speedytang

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2004, 06:41:04 AM »
I will spend time on the Track this weekend but I did find a cylinder reference signal so it does know which cylinder is firing because it knows when #1 fires. !9lb injectors can handle 325hp and still not go static and that is on a 302ci. I put my Track on the Dyno today and it runs very rich on the top end.(above 4400rpm) I will post the graph this weekend.  A customer had his Mega built that had the most trouble but yet out of 3 units that we tried to Dyno we had many problems and shielding the unit probably will help. I am picking up a computer from the yard tomorrow he has a 93 and a 94 so I will check the part numbers but will get the 94 since that is what I have. I am going to get my tubing bent for the Turbo next week and I will install without a Intercooler and put it on the dyno and see when it goes lean. I have a fix without changing the computer or software but I need to see how far off the Speed Density computer is before I try the next step.
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2004, 07:06:26 PM »
Well Speedy, I don't know what your background is, but 9 PPH
injectors are too small to make that kind of HP, hell the 1.9L
Ford Escort uses 17 PPH and the turbo bird uses 35 PPH, Yes
these PPH #s are per cylinder, not total for all combined injectors.

Now I will admit I didn't test all of these injectors, but from what I
have been reading on the turbo sites, My #s are closer to this table
than what you have been saying, even a 50 PPH Divide by 4 = 12.5
to 13 PPH fuel distribution per cylinder!!  

Best of luck on your turbo mod, but I hope you take some time
to brush up on your fuel homework before you blow that motor.

Darrin


« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 07:12:12 PM by wildgoody »
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2004, 08:05:35 PM »
Let us know what you find out. As far as I am aware there is only the CAS (Crank Angle Sensor) and thats just a fancy name for the ignition trigger.
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1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

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Offline speedytang

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 02:18:07 AM »
I just was verifying what you had to say about the stock TBI size of injector. I have no problem poking around and on the Dyno I will see how much fuel I can push the motor before she goes lean. But I found a solution for the TBI and I am picking it up with the computer this morning. Not really worth the trouble probably and be better off putting a 5.0 in it anyways and cut down a 8.8 I have in the shop for the rear and finds something to do about the front this summer for next winter. Its a toy and is such a nice car to hack on, but I am bored.
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2004, 10:47:34 PM »
Did you make any progress with the stock ECU?
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1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2004, 07:59:00 AM »
Well I've got a stock ECM to play with now, came out of Dave Jones drowned Vit. The processor is a Mitsubishi item and I can't find any data for it on the web so it looks like reverse engineering is out of the question unless Mitsubishi come through with a datasheet and compiler - unlikely. I'm going to continue with my plan to make a new circuit board to fit inside the housing but I'm due to move house soon so time is limited
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1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org
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Offline idaholwb

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Re: ECU - Computer
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2004, 01:46:26 PM »
Quote
I just was verifying what you had to say about the stock TBI size of injector. I have no problem poking around and on the Dyno I will see how much fuel I can push the motor before she goes lean. But I found a solution for the TBI and I am picking it up with the computer this morning. Not really worth the trouble probably and be better off putting a 5.0 in it anyways and cut down a 8.8 I have in the shop for the rear and finds something to do about the front this summer for next winter. Its a toy and is such a nice car to hack on, but I am bored.


I think the point that Wildgoody is trying to get across to you, flew past your port bow!
He was trying to point out the fact of the size of the SINGLE injector vs. the size of MULTIPLE injectors. The point you might be trying to make, I think is, the factory injector on the kick TBI IS bigger than the individual injectors on the other applications.
The injector question that seems unanswered, is, what would the appropriate size injector be for a total of 4 individual injectors. The question isn't how big is the factory single injector in comparison.
I hope that clarifies things a little. 8)
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