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Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?

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Offline Z3bra

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Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« on: January 07, 2004, 07:03:51 PM »
Tried cannibalizing my old one and installing it.  Can't get it to work so it looks like I need the good ol 8910 tach adapter.  Unfortunately, I think the tach adapter  I got a while back is a doorbell stepdown transformer in an 8910 box because it doesn't look like the MSD part or say MSD on it anywhere nor does it have the right color wires.  Sorry ass muscle car shop screwed me I'm afraid and I don't have a receipt anymore to take it back so I guess I"m out the 20 or 30 bucks it cost.  Oh well, guess I can try the sympathy plea or something and hope they'll go for it.  Should have took it back then but I was thinking maybe it was just an older version at the time so I wasn't worried about it.

So anyway if I get the right tach adapter will this work right? Anybody else got one to work?

I had to "fall back" to just using the better coil instead of the whole system.  I'm not expecting any monumental improvement but hey I had it anyway so what the heck might as well put it to work.

I called RRO about installing one some time ago since they sell them and advertise them for the trackers/kicks.  They didn't know jack about how to install them. I should say it was the guy I talked to anyway and he didn't seem to act like anybody else that was there knew either.  Maybe I got the wrong impression, dunno.

The Blaster 2 coil and 8.5mm plug wires are nicer, definitely starts a lot quicker and idles smoother.  Plus the new wires look pretty sexy compared to the old crappy NGK's they replaced.

If I get it working I'll post a write up of what's involved aside from the default install in case anyone else is thinking about putting one in.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2004, 07:06:29 PM by Z3bra »

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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2004, 09:58:07 PM »
I really want to put one on.  sence i have 2 old(really old) MSD 6AL's hanging around the shop, i have been trying to find the right wiring diograms(spell check) to hook it up.  also can you tell me what color wire to put on that blaster 2 coil?  thanks lata stu
   

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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 12:18:55 AM »
Ok I'll have to wait till I try this tonight or on my days off.

Turns out I do have a real 8910 tach adapter which is just a low pass filter. I just have the ugly older version without the spiffy red plastic casing.

There are 6 wires to hook up with the 6A, 6AL should be the same but don't forget you'll have to clip the wire in the top plug since it's going on a 4 cyl (unless it's already clipped of course).  You can download PDF's of the install instructions straight from MSD's website under the download section.  The fact that they're old shouldn't worry you, the MSD's are pretty tough and not a whole lot should have changed in their design anyway.  Only problem is if the capacitors inside them went south but that's basically impossible to check without cutting it open anyway.

http://www.msdignition.com

The 6 series all have one installation document (except the digital one that's totally different).  The diagram you want to use for the MSD in the tracker/kick is the first one that's located at the bottom of "page 10" if you go by the page numbers on the document.

Here's the download link:

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/6series.pdf

It's 2.2 MB.

Anyway for the 6A, (and presumably the 6AL) the 12 guage red and black go to pos and negative battery red being positive of course.  There's a smaller guage orange and black set, those go to + on the coil and - on the coil (orange to pos, black to neg).

The red and white wires connect to the old coil wires.  On the 90 tracker, the coil + wire is black with a white stripe, that connects to the red 16 guage wire on the MSD.  The coil negative is a brown wire and hooks to the white wire on the MSD.

Now unless you have an 8910 tach adapter this will not work because our ECM needs a tach signal to supply fuel.  This is the only direct tie between the fuel injection and ignition on the early models using the 8v, not sure if it changed later but as long as you have a distributor style ignition I doubt it would be any different.  Basically the 8910 is installed parallel to the red and white small wires on the MSD via a splice.  There's also a diode that connects to the white wire and comes with the 8910 that's recommended to install.  Just do a search for 8910 on the MSD webpage to find the installation instructions for the 8910, they only show 2 configurations, haven't got to this point so your guess is as good as mine as to which one is the right one.  Make sure you download the regular 8910 document not the 8910 EIS one.

Heck, here's a link to the download even.

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8910_tach_adapter.pdf

This one's 285kb or something around there.

I haven't officially got this to work though so it may change slightly when I get it working possibly tonight but probably not till the first part of next week on my days off realistically.

To hook up a blaster 2 coil, replace your stock one with it and hook up the coil pos and coil neg to their respective terminals.  I've heard you're not supposed to mount the liquid filled blaster 2's horizontally, but mine has been in my Datsun for 6 years on it's side and hasn't leaked so who knows.  I did disconnect the top coil mounting hoop bolt and just have it in there with the bottom one only tilted at a 45 degree angle though.  Can't hurt but I don't know if it's necessary.  Might want to consider a better set of plug wires too if you're doing the coil and definitely if you do the coil and the MSD.  

What  I would recommend though is if you're using the blaster coil and want to try the 6A but have the ability to fall back to just the coil in case you have problems with the 6A or can't get it to work and need to drive is to put plain old female spade lugs on the two oem coil pos and coil neg wires.  Put male spade lugs on the small red and white wires from the MSD.  This way if the MSD fails you can just hook the two original coil wires back to the MSD coil instead of the orange/black wires and be back on the road.

My old wires must have been pretty hosed, I noticed a whole lot less static on the AM radio this morning on my drive to work with the MSD "Superconductor" wires. compared to the NGKs.  Then again maybe they were just that crappy to begin with if the fit of the set has any bearing on the overall quality.

Anyway hope that helps. If you've got em laying around it's probably worth a try to hook one up and give it a shot.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 12:22:12 AM by Z3bra »

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Offline lil_Truck

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 01:22:02 AM »
So why are you looking at a differnt igniction system for?  Is your's cutting out or are you having other problems?

I've had no problems with my factory one.  Of cource I have a 16v so maby theres a big difference.  Now if I could go distributorless (get rid of possible water problems) then I'd check into it.

Just wondering???
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 01:22:43 AM by lil_Truck »
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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 02:00:51 AM »
It's not a different ignition system, it augments the one that's in there with more and bigger sparks. Below 3000 RPM the MSD boxes feature a "multiple spark discharge" (hence the initials).  Basically it pulses a bunch of sparks for 30 degrees of the engine cycle instead of just one spark.  It helps ensure that the air fuel mixture gets burned more thorougly (on paper anyway).  Above 3000 RPM it just spits out a really big spark.  The MSD's input to the coil by way of capacative discharge is 450 volts.  Not much in the way of current of course but for sparks voltage is the key anyway.  I'm not sure what the stock input to the coil is offhand.  With the MSD coil and the MSD 6A box all things otherwise equal, the sparks are a lot more impressive.    

I don't view it as a cure all, but I had it on another car that's not going to be using it again anyway so I cannibalized it for the tracker.  Worst case it does nothing, best case it helps slightly with power, emissions, maybe mileage slightly.  Just putting the MSD coil and wires on made a noticeable if "seat of the pants" sort of difference.

I'm throwing it in there because I have it, if it was a case of buying a new one I'd probably pass.

Now since you ask about a Distributorless system, here ya go.

http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_27.htm  (785 bucks from Summit Racing)

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/hpx.html (Couldn't find a price but I'm sure it's about the same as the one above anyway).

Hell for that much might as well get an SDS EFI setup that uses GM coils and is ready to go for about $1100 and allows programmable EFI control.

Not cheap but then again what is when it comes to motorsports toys?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 02:47:23 AM by Z3bra »

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Offline DSHornet

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 08:36:12 AM »
CD ignition systems aren't new, and they do work. I had a kit-built one on two cars I had thirty years ago ('69 Plymouth Satellite 318, '73 AMC Hornet 304) and it made a measurable difference - one MPG, smoother idle, better power, with a stock coil. Looking at the ignition system patterns on an ignition scope while switching the CD control in and out of the circuit was somethin' else.

Don, y'all
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Paw-paw Don, y'all
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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 10:44:12 AM »
WOW thats alot of reading.  thanks so much for giving me all the little details that will make this project so much easyer.  lata stu
   

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Offline lil_Truck

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2004, 10:55:13 AM »
Let us know how it turns out.
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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2004, 11:28:06 AM »
oh you'll see me on the news.  I'm  gunna be the first person to hit light speed in a tracker.  ;D ::) ;D  lata stu
   

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Offline lil_Truck

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2004, 11:36:11 AM »
How fast you hitting that Bud Light???
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2004, 09:57:08 PM »
Quote
CD ignition systems aren't new, and they do work. I had a kit-built one on two cars I had thirty years ago ('69 Plymouth Satellite 318, '73 AMC Hornet 304) and it made a measurable difference - one MPG, smoother idle, better power, with a stock coil. Looking at the ignition system patterns on an ignition scope while switching the CD control in and out of the circuit was somethin' else.

Don, y'all
.



By coincidence a 1969 copy of Wireless World fell upon my desk this morning with an article on how to build your own CD system. The spark patterns that you see will be very different as the systems work very differently as such the input voltages are not directly comparable. CD systems have found favour on 2 strokes and smaller engines where the short high energy spark is more resilient to plug fouling. Four strokes generally respond better with the longer spark discharge that an Inductive system gives. Production CD systems usually have the high voltage necessary supplied by seperate coils in the alternator. Aftermarket systems have to step up the battery voltage which is much less efficient. If you look at the systems offered by the major car manufacturers they are all inductive.
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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2004, 07:12:56 AM »
no if i really thought that it would have to be straght Bud.  but how come Hagen can put his into arbit(spell check) and i can't hit light speed?  lol  lata stu
   

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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Anybody installed an MSD 6A variant on an 8V?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2004, 11:56:54 AM »
Well after installing the 6A with the Tach adapter it still doesn't work.  Going to have to fax some tracker/kick wiring schematics to MSD and have them give it a look at this point.  

It's either a problem with the radio noise filters on the tracker (my gut feeling)  or my MSD box is hosed but I doubt it since it worked fine on the other car prior to that one obtaining "hangar queen" status.