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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: dingus on June 15, 2009, 06:11:47 PM
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Well Check out this Mess at fixing a crank! ::)
Looks like the new Keyway they made wore till the pully started to move then slowly till my power loss a week or so ago.
Looks like the Taliban were working on my Tracker with files.
My buddy who is a machineist says he can make a new better key way and set my Tracker back up to proper specks.
What do you Tracker Die hards think?
The pully wobbles on the crank sghaft now so i need a new Pully i figger.
Will a pully off a 1996 16 V fit ?
Mines a 1997.
My buddy says he could bush this pully but i think getting one with a good slot to start with would be best.
Any ideas would be great.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC150034.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC150039.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC150038.jpg)
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get a new pulley and there is a loctite product that will fill the gap and make the new key grab the way it needs. It will fill the worn out part. Make sure to let it sit long enough to set-up right.
I had the drive pulleys on the kart motor get loose and beat the key and all the parts till every thing was no good. There was some that were not too bad and I put in a new key, a used drive pulley and the loctite product.
It fills the gap, now I'm sure it won't fill a huge gap but with a new key and pulley I'd stand by the fact that you won't have any more issues. They are hard to remove after you use the product. I've got to use a puller when before it was just pulled off by hand. When I put together a new motor now I put some filler even if all the parts are new and tight....not worth taking the chance.
Just went on the canadian site and I can't find the product name. When I get to the shop I'll get it and post it right away. This is alot cheaper than taking out the crank and getting that redone and it's impossible to fix it where it sits.
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The correct fix would be a replacement crank & pulley, but that is probably easier said than done, so you might want to take your buddy up on his offer, and I agree, if you can locate a replacement pulley in better condition that would be a good start.
For what it's worth - Loctite makes a product for dealing with loose keys and damaged keyways, but I suspect your's may be too far gone for that - it's Loctite 660.
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Will the 1991 pulleys work on the 1997 engines ?
I know guys use JB weld to in Canada.
I will see if i can find that 660 Locktite.
My buddy will make a good fitting Keyway he is a fantastic machinist from Australia.
They keep stuff running forever down under eh.
Also i have a compleat 8V 1600 Motor with a nice looking tight fitting Pully.
I think its a 91 Tracker it came outa its a 8 V motor tho.
My belt is the rounded tooth belt tho.
I think finding a Pully if there not compatible 88 to 98 will be Hard for me to find.
I dont care if its hard to take it apart i will drive this engine till it dies then put in a copmpleatly rebuilt one. its so nice and burns no oil id be happy with another 100.000 Miles outa it its at 130,000 miles Now
I Need to know about the Pulleys tho?
Thanks for all the help this site and your help has been EX thru this excersise.
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I'm not certain if the pulleys can interchange on the 1.6, but I doubt it - a '97 would have a different EFI system to a '91 (if the 91 had EFI) and there may be a crank position sensor in that area - I think you'll need a '96 or later pulley - 96 is when they EFI would have been changed.
If they can interchange, the round/square tooth should not really be an issue - as long as you change both crank and cam pulleys along with the belt.
I had a look at the parts catalogue - the pulley for the '96~'98 is different to the earlier ones - it has that six tooth ring on the back, visible in your pictures, the earlier ones don't.
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I'm not certain if the pulleys can interchange on the 1.6, but I doubt it - a '97 would have a different EFI system to a '91 (if the 91 had EFI) and there may be a crank position sensor in that area - I think you'll need a '96 or later pulley - 96 is when they EFI would have been changed.
If they can interchange, the round/square tooth should not really be an issue - as long as you change both crank and cam pulleys along with the belt.
I had a look at the parts catalogue - the pulley for the '96~'98 is different to the earlier ones - it has that six tooth ring on the back, visible in your pictures, the earlier ones don't.
Hi Thanks the guy from ebay that sells theses gears said the same thing cept he said 95 and up was OK.
I sould just stick with a 96 or newer one tho.
Im gona try and pick up a crank to.
This way if it happens again (we can at least try a proper repair) but if it Fails again then i pull the engine and put in a new crank.
I dont need to touch the head to do that do i ?
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Iv'e seen this cond. on several veh.s in my shop. We always replaced the pully & key but found 2 options that worked (4 the $).Yes JB weld did work & we tightend the pully bolt extra tight (don't put thread locker on bolt) Crazy hard to get off next time. But the second way worked very well too & didn't require drying time like JB welding it. We install the "new" pulley & checked timing belt position. With Pulley bolt off we drilled a hole between the crank & pully. Took same size drill bit, broke off end that fits into drill chuck & tapped it into hole just drilled. "New key" between crank & pully. This works quick & lasts. Don't let crank bully bolt get loose & you won't have this problem again. Last guy doing timing belt or crank seal didn't tighten it enough & thats almost always how this happens. Hope this helps.
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Iv'e seen this cond. on several veh.s in my shop. We always replaced the pully & key but found 2 options that worked (4 the $).Yes JB weld did work & we tightend the pully bolt extra tight (don't put thread locker on bolt) Crazy hard to get off next time. But the second way worked very well too & didn't require drying time like JB welding it. We install the "new" pulley & checked timing belt position. With Pulley bolt off we drilled a hole between the crank & pully. Took same size drill bit, broke off end that fits into drill chuck & tapped it into hole just drilled. "New key" between crank & pully. This works quick & lasts. Don't let crank bully bolt get loose & you won't have this problem again. Last guy doing timing belt or crank seal didn't tighten it enough & thats almost always how this happens. Hope this helps.
Yes this helps!
What sized drill bit did you use?
Cranks are pretty hard did you do it with the crank in the Engine?
I ordered a Brand new pully and Bolt.
My Machinist will make a new Key insert like the one thats in the picture BUT it will fit in the Key slot in the pully tight.
The Crank bolt was lock tited in my Engine.
Heres a trick for getting Locktited crank bolts out.
Put a Breaker bar on the Crank Nut tie off the Barr so it can move.
Pull the Dist wires or ciol wire off so the engine wont Start!
Trun on the Key just abit Very quick on and off.
The starter busts the Locktie like butter.
I got my bolt out no Trobles. i had to turn the engine over a few times as my Bolt was really glued in there i will be getting a new Crank bolt to!
How big a drill bit and what type to drill into a crank. sounds like good Extra insurance in my situation.
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We used a 1/8 drill bit & yes the motor & crank stay where there at. At most you my have to remove radiator. As for the mach. of custom key. That's going to be tough as the crank damage is uneven. Just put the new pully on where you want it & drill from the "front towards back" of motor. you only need to drill a 1/2 in. in. Cut/break of solid shank part of drill bit & tap/pound it in the hole you drilled. Done ! As for using the starter to "Break" free crank bolt, only for a trail fix would ( I) recommened that as you can break the teeth on the starter drive gear or worse the teeth on the clutch flywheel. Ya' im guilty of doing that a few time as well when the front crank seal started dumping oil on on the trail but not worth the risk if you don't have to. Best way to remove crank bolt that someone put thread lock on it is to heat it up with a torch. Just remember to change the crank seal when done. P. S. I have an advantage on lots of stuff like this as I have owned 3 toyota truck shops for the last 14 years & am a long time off roader as most people on this site. Learned a few tricks !
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I would first drill in with a 1/8' bit & finnish with a 1/4" or a little bigger if you have one. We finnished & tapped in 1/4" & to date they are still holding. One I did six yrs. ago. Go luck. :angel:
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I would first drill in with a 1/8' bit & finnish with a 1/4" or a little bigger if you have one. We finnished & tapped in 1/4" & to date they are still holding. One I did six yrs. ago. Go luck. :angel:
Ok Thanks i Appreciate your Experience and the tips. I thought you ment drill from the top thru the gear teeth then pin it that way. ???
Your way makes 100% more sence its a great trick!
As far as the Machinists key it will work as they Machined out a big Oval shape in the crank (look at my Picture)
Its a almost perfect long slot with rounded endes all the exact depth.
(the shop that did that cut with a milling machine had the cRank outa the engine)
Anyway there was traces of the ORIGNAL woodruff key slot in the bottom of that Oval cut out.
Its Dead center in the Oval. So the Machineist is makeing up a new piece to fit in that oval with the key part sticking up..
Basicly makeing the crank like it was when new but a werid shaped key.
But as added Strength i like your idea of drilling a 1/4 inch hole beside or down the joint of the pully and Crank.
I will take some more pics and post em here now the Crank is clean and that Worn hand made piece of crap key is gone, Once my buddy has made up the new Key way.
New pulley will be here tomorrow from GM.
Should be a good Repair.
I have a new Longer crank bolt two the orignal one was way to short!
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OK heres some pics you can see the Machinists work on the crank.
What was terible was the crappy job done on the Key that fit into the Hole!
Look at the pics you can see. The new key is two steped one part fits in that Slot the other will have the exact key in line with where the Orignal Key slot was.
If ya look in the bottom of the big Oval you can see the bottom of the old Key slot.
The hand made key thing they made looks like some afgan made it with a hand file outa soft iron in the mountains while entertainig his Goat ::)
Even the parts that were not worn were very poorly made.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC160003.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC160004.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC150034.jpg)
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I kinda went through this thread fast, so If I am repeating something, Oh well..
Remember - any use of a product like JB Weld or other techniques to permanently lock the crank pulley in place will make it REAL HARD to replace the oil pump if it goes bad!
BE SURE to properly torque the crankshaft pulley bolt to spec. If possible, get a new bolt. That bolt being loose is what caused the failure in the first place.
;D
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WOW ! Nice to know people who can do work like that. The drill trick is for the guy who has limited help. Very nice & good job with the pic's too !
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Well Repair is comeing Along heres some up dated Pictures.
After alot of Fileing and fitting my key way fits tight with no Wiggleing.
Now do i GB weld the key way in let it dry then lock tite on the Pulley?
Theres a little play between the crank and the new pully as the crank has worn about .0001 tho i can get a piece of thin brass shim stock in between the crank and thje pully but its .0001 thick and makes everything tight and centers the pulley.
Any advise :-\
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC170011.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC170010.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/dingus_01/PC170008.jpg)
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Uhhh - you did see Ack's post right? The one where he points out that if you "glue" the key in, it'll make it very difficult to replace the oil pump/seal/etc.?
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Uhhh - you did see Ack's post right? The one where he points out that if you "glue" the key in, it'll make it very difficult to replace the oil pump/seal/etc.?
Ya i know but i dont want this sucker to move. I figger if i get another 60 Thosand KM or so outa this id be very happy.
I am looking for a new Rebuilt 1996 to 1998 engine to have ready.
Besides Locktie can be heated up and a puller used to pull off the pully then i could get that key way outa there a few diffrent ways if i was replaceing the oil seal anyway.
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Looking GOOD!
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OK well just and up Date after letting all the locktie dry for Two full days i put everything back together and fired the Beast right up. Adjusted the timeing and she Runs like a new Tracker Again ;D
Lotsa power on hills now its even better than it was when i bought it.
Course it already had 3000 KMs on this crappy repair when i got it.
So its all good now engines just purrrs :)
I will check all the bolts after a few days to make sure everythings tight not comeing loose.
Alt Bolt and Air cond Bolts ect the locktited stuff should be good!
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Wow, that was 1 ugly crank snout!! Grats on getting it fixed... seems to be the cause of death on a lot of em & that 1 was wallowed out bad! Hope it keeps going for a good long time. Did you end up using Locktite 660 or JBweld on the crank/key?
Fuzz
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What i did was this ...
Cleaned up the Key i made so it was polished steel no ink on it ect.
Used 660 on the key in the hole in the crank
Oh i smeared grease all around that engine seal so none of the locktie would get in there!
Then i used the same 660 on the .0001 shim and on both the crank stud and the inside of the crank timeing gear pully.
Snugged it all up tight with a block of wood (it was a tight fit i had to tap it on.
Then i used 252 Lock tite on the new longer Crank bolt (the shop used the orignal crank bolt and the buggered crank timeing pully) so no wonder it re buggered up for what to save $60 ::)
So i cranked the new crank bolt in tight used a torque wrench gave it more than the 55 Lbs the book calls for. more like 70 Lbs.
Let it all dry for two full days.
Seems fine now runs better that ever.
I know it will be a bitch to take it apart but i figger it should be good for 50.000 Kms by then i will have found a engine and Rebuilt it myself.
might even last longer.
done the best i posibley could without pulling the engine and putting in a new crank.
It just flew up this supper steep hill where i live has a hair pin turn in the hill halfway up so ya gota slow down right in the middle of a 65 % climb.
It flew up there no worries.
No missing or pinging nice and smooth.
I figger best to set the timeing where it feels best as there no way i got my key way EXACTLY where the orignal one is so its at about 12 degerrs at 800 RPM in park.
Seems to like being there. I never shorted out that plug thing with the rubber cap on it either.
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So i cranked the new crank bolt in tight used a torque wrench gave it more than the 55 Lbs the book calls for. more like 70 Lbs.
Let it all dry for two full days.
I figger best to set the timeing where it feels best as there no way i got my key way EXACTLY where the orignal one is so its at about 12 degerrs at 800 RPM in park.
Seems to like being there. I never shorted out that plug thing with the rubber cap on it either.
2 things on this: There was a TSB in (96?) retro to ALL 1.6l to torque the crank main bolt to 94 ft/lbs. This was to correct the very problem that caused the key to wallow the crank. '96 & up came at 94 ft/lb from the factory... I don't think the aftermarket books ever noted this (Haynes etc) & still have the old spec sadly. TSB# here, http://www.kick-fix.com/specs/torque1.html
not sure but prolly also on ACKS FAQ 96 fsm page. But, since you used locktite on the bolt, you'll prolly be ok & maybe could cause problems if you re-torque it... don't want to break that bolt!! I'd keep a close eye on it though.
Also, the jumper is req'd to set ignition timing correct, otherwise it will change due to the ECU advance/retard commands that it uses during normal operation. Placing the jumper sets it 'static', so place the jumper to get it right on.
If you have TDC correct on crank/cam then your key is in the correct place, or you'd be getting some misfire or compression loss... I don't know how much if any tolerance it has, so you must have gotten very close. Very cool that you got it running anyhow. 8)
Fuzz
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So i cranked the new crank bolt in tight used a torque wrench gave it more than the 55 Lbs the book calls for. more like 70 Lbs.
Let it all dry for two full days.
I figger best to set the timeing where it feels best as there no way i got my key way EXACTLY where the orignal one is so its at about 12 degerrs at 800 RPM in park.
Seems to like being there. I never shorted out that plug thing with the rubber cap on it either.
2 things on this: There was a TSB in (96?) retro to ALL 1.6l to torque the crank main bolt to 94 ft/lbs. This was to correct the very problem that caused the key to wallow the crank. '96 & up came at 94 ft/lb from the factory... I don't think the aftermarket books ever noted this (Haynes etc) & still have the old spec sadly. TSB# here, [url]http://www.kick-fix.com/specs/torque1.html[/url]
not sure but prolly also on ACKS FAQ 96 fsm page. But, since you used locktite on the bolt, you'll prolly be ok & maybe could cause problems if you re-torque it... don't want to break that bolt!! I'd keep a close eye on it though.
Also, the jumper is req'd to set ignition timing correct, otherwise it will change due to the ECU advance/retard commands that it uses during normal operation. Placing the jumper sets it 'static', so place the jumper to get it right on.
If you have TDC correct on crank/cam then your key is in the correct place, or you'd be getting some misfire or compression loss... I don't know how much if any tolerance it has, so you must have gotten very close. Very cool that you got it running anyhow. 8)
Fuzz
Thanks for that info!!!
I ordered a set of the Two purple Factory Geo 1997 books off Ebay on my Tracker.
I hope there a bit more detailed than my haynes book.
The carnk bolt i put it in frist where it felt very tight by hand.
Then took it back out put the 252 locktie on it and screwed it back in and was was very tight closer to 75 FT Lbs with a torque wrench.
I didnt want to torque it any tighter for fear of thread damage and like you said the locktite should stop it from ever backing out.
The Orignal bolt that the other Mechanic put in was locktited in and it never moved.
It was the fact the guy used the old worn pully and a poorly made Keyway.
once the key way let the pulley start to move the pulley wore worse and began to wobble.
Then move so much my timeing went way out but i could still drive barely.
I will redo the timeing like you said with the wire shorting out the two contacts and set it to 5 degrees.
Says that right on the hood Information on timeing my 1997.
Im gona do it just to see if it improves.
The Key way was withing a degee of being dead on maby even perfect. the marks on the timeing gear pully and cam shaft pulley lined up perfect with the belt on at TDC
So i should try it to factory specs it might improve the power even more.
Worth a try anyway.
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when it comes time to remove you'll need to heat the loctite. Just get a new gasket/seal for the back of the pulley and you'll be all good. I'm sure it won't cause you any more problems. We've done many worn out keys with this stuff.
I took some old sprockets for some karts and they were worn out. I let the product cure and it was all good.
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OK i did that Timeing Adjustment like was susjested here and the tracker does run way Better! :) Best its ever Run.
I shorted that Plug thing and set the timeing at 5 Degress and it runs better more power im Thrilled.
Thanks to everyone for all there help and ideas... Also will report how this repair holds up Ect.
Im very happy with the Tracker engine now. Man its a power house compared to before.
I find running it with the OD switch off.
on my small island this helps to as theres lotsa hills and speed limit is like 40 MPH max.
On the HWY i can turn it on its never worked till now when i turn it on when the engine is in its OD gear, the engine changes gear and runs at higher RPM giveing more power.
I have a more power switch but dont want to get to Carreid away. ;D