Hello all. All this nasty-ness is fresh from the re-install.
My engine runs rough at idle and through rpm. You can really feel the vibrations from the clutch/gas pedals and the transmission shifter; the transfer case shifter has no vibrations. I also feel some vibration in the seat. At 60mph I turned off the engine and all vibrations went away. Also when de-reving a knocking like gears slapping comes from the starter area. I've had this same noise with a 1.3 starter, it started when I smacked the starter with a hammer (no wood) trying to get it to work. The starter passed the test auto stores provide. The noise went away when I upgraded to a 1.6 bottom end as the starter was changed. I want to say that this noise and the vibration are related. No power has been lost.

I checked the starter to see if maybe it was loose. I checked that the plug wires were connected and orientated correctly. I I played with a timing light and could'nt smooth anything out..

My transmission was seeping oil so I pulled it to lay a silicon bead. I had to take off the center force clutch (one with sliding weights) before their was enough room to get the transmission out. In taking the clutch off the disk needed relined during install. With out a guide pin (thanks center force) I was only able to orientate the disk by feel. The input shaft slid into the disk with no problems. When re-installing the coil I was unable to find a wire diagram in my service manual showing the +/- leads on the coil. I hooked up black to - and brown to +, it started up so I have not changed it. I could'nt see a backwards running coil being capable of causing so much vibration. I also installed a new clutch line while everything was out.

I'm at a total loss, help would be wonderful, Thanks.
Parker.

The guide pin is part of the flywheel and not part of the pressure plate, whomever surfaced the flywheel removed the pins and didnt reinstall them.

The clutch is balanced with these guide pins in mind, they need to be reinstalled into the flywheel.

I think he was talking about the plastic dummy pilot shaft missing in the kit.  you might have destroyed the pilot bearing putting the trans back in.

The 6 (i think) guide pins the help set the pressure plate are still pressed into the flywheel. It has been resurfaced but by professionals with extensive race experience, the pins were re-pressed. Again the engine ran smoothly before I took the transmission off. The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.

I know that ACT provides the plastic guide pin when you purchase one of their pressure plates. Again, its just a plastic guide with a tapered end on the flywheel end and an eye hole for grip on the other end. The guide acts like the input shaft from the transmission and is pulled once the pressure plate is tighten.

I was thinking that the transmission was misaligned from the engine and tightened the connecting bolts to the MAX. The rear transmission mount needs replaced badly, but does sit in the cradle.


Ill keep the thought that a flywheel pin came out during the un-install/re-install in my mind as I could see an unbalance like that to cause what I'm feeling. The pressure plate was installed without a hitch.

Thanks, Parker.

Mr. fuelish.
Great Idea. The input shaft did slide into the teeth of the disk, but I did not try squeezing the engine and trans together by hand as I was alone. I used the connecting bolts to squeeze the last 3/4 inch by bolt and felt no resistance. But yah I may have destroyed the pilot bearing... I've put around 50 miles on everything since the re-install.
You don't know any symptoms of a DESTROYED not warn pilot bearing do you?
Thanks, Parker

I doubt that you destroyed the pilot bearing, it is solid brass.  You may have been able to tighten it up with the clutch in misalignment and with the transmission jackshaft sitting on side of pilot bearing.  That would cause an unbalanced clutch and bad vibrations, it would take a lot of force to do that which would prevent it from jumping in place.  I have used large screw drivers with sockets slipped over them to create a sort of alignment spline successfully.  You could probably get an alignment tool from the parts store also.  If you were close I'd give you one, cause I have two.
If you have caused a burr on the edge of the pilot bearing from riding out of place, just take a larger drill bit and chamfer the edge of hole a little.  The pilot bearing is there to keep the jackshaft from wobbling when the clutch is in (not engaged).  When the clutch is engaged with proper alignment it also holds the jackshaft in place, and the pilot bearing is turning at the same speed as the jackshaft so there should not be any wear on the bearing then.  It really takes a lot of time with the clutch disengaged to wear out a pilot bearing.  Automatics do not have pilot bearings they use the torque to hold it in place.

every Suzuki That I have put a clutch into has had a ball bearing type pilot bearing in it, even with a racing type clutch, these rigs are just about perfect when it comes to machine work, the transmission if lined up properly will slide right in by hand.

  The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.

 

Ahh ok the clutch alignment tool..

You can very easily destroy the pilot bushing without properly using the alignment tool, I know this as I tried the same route as you several years ago when the tool wasnt included and I was in a hurry to get the clutch installed(I since bought a universal alignment tool to use on any clutch) and the input shaft jammed the pilot bushing in further and made it cock sideways.

The two zuki clutchs I have installed in sidekicks both had solid brass bushings, no bearing style pilot bushing.

Thanks for the reply brd.

That would cause an unbalanced clutch and bad vibrations, it would take a lot of force to do that which would prevent it from jumping in place. 

I lost you in the bold.

I have used large screw drivers with sockets slipped over them to create a sort of alignment spline successfully.  You could probably get an alignment tool from the parts store also.

If I understand the screwdriver socket idea correctly, one would need some sight to overlook the alignment. Would work well if the motor or transmission was out of the car and one was in a hurry without the guide. I have to align the disk while the transmission is propped up by a jack inside the trans tunnel as far back as possible. So being able to see ANYTHING alignment wise is impossible.
I aligned the disk by feeling the distance between the teeth of the disk and the edge of the pilot bearing. I took 5 minutes just feeling around until I was satisfied with what seemed a consistent gap length around the circumference of the disks teeth. Hope that makes some sense. I'll send center force an e-mail and see if they will ship me a guide "on the house". Otherwise if It comes to taking the transmission back out ill order one from a parts store.

I have watched some "bad pilot bearing" videos and I'm not hearing anything familiar.

Do you think their is enough clearance depth in the bell housing to allow the tapered end of the input shaft to not fit in the pilot bearing? My gut tells me there's not, but my gut has mislead me a time or two.

And also just to not forget... Some noise also started after the re-install. I want to say its the ring gear on the flywheel slapping the starter gear, that what it sounds like and seems to be coming from that area. When the engine is running under load you can hear it, and as I "engine brake" the noise gets louder.

Quote from: rbparker on October 31, 2011, 11:09:27 AM

  The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.

 

Ahh ok the clutch alignment tool..

You can very easily destroy the pilot bushing without properly using the alignment tool, I know this as I tried the same route as you several years ago when the tool wasnt included and I was in a hurry to get the clutch installed(I since bought a universal alignment tool to use on any clutch) and the input shaft jammed the pilot bushing in further and made it cock sideways.

The two zuki clutchs I have installed in sidekicks both had solid brass bushings, no bearing style pilot bushing.

Haha yes theirs the words I've been looking for! Clutch alignment tool... haha.
You logic seems soild and I cant disagree with jamming the pilot bearing. I'm sure its a ball bearing style, I pressed one in from a rebuild kit. At least my memory tells me it was a bearing. I aligned the disk by hand when I rebuilt the motor outside of the car. Maybe that boosted my ego a little to high.

You're logic is making me think I need to re pull the tranny.

Thanks, Parker.

10-4 on pulling the trans, I have seen people pull those pesky weights off of the pressure plates on purpose to keep them from doing bad things also, they are made for high rpms extra pressure but sometimes stick at low rpms and get in the way. take pictures when you find out if you pushed it back or pushed the guts out, the bearings will fall out and could mess your new clutch up.

Will do on the picture part. It might be a couple days until I get to pullin. Right now the Samurai is the only vehicle in operational condition. Living 12 miles from civilization I'll need to make sure the "time" is right. Also should order an alignment tool and bearing/bushing for the clutch before the ripping begins.

Why did I get a bearing and not a bushing in the rebuild kit? Well more-or-less should I order a bushing if possible?

Even though I hate your logic, its looking like I'm going to thank you.

I will say, after tightening the bolts "to the MAX" (aluminum v.s steel in mind) and moving timing from about 10d TDC to 17d TDC the vibration did subside a %'age. The "ring gear/ starter noise" however stayed the same. A part of me is saying that this noise and the a-new vibrations are not related though they started at the same time. Maybe I set the starter on the concrete ground to hard? I've had this headache before with the 1.3 engine/starter (after hitting it metal to metal) and it did not carry along any vibrations at the start its clanking sound.

I love the internet and this website for its awesomeness of connectivity. Honestly I can't thank you all enough for your help.
Parker.

Oh, and I forgot. Do you know of anything I can get my hands on that talks about the removal of those weights on the pressure plate? I don't know much about why they are there and would like to know some more info before I just go cutting. I'll be looking around the web for some answers myself, but figured you might know of the tell all link.

I'm not supposed to mention links like pirate4x4.com but the locals here are more into driving over stuff than drag racing so they remove the weights (probably with a hammer and screwdriver hitting them towards the hole on the fingers) because the stock 1.3 does not have enough horse power to need them, the faster the pressure plate spins the weights the weights use centrifugal force and apply more pressure to the disk, but the centerforce has way more pressure by itself than a stock one. hope this helps.

If you are having starter engagement with the flywheel without hitting the starter, you probably are setting on the side of the pilot bearing.
I would try loosening all the bellhousing bolts (without removing them) and remove the back transmission mount and see if you can wiggle the transmission into place.  If the bellhousing slides up tight on all sides (with loose bolts) the jackshaft is inside the pilot bearing.  It is worth a try and may save having to pull it all apart.
Right now with the bolts tight I suspect that you still have a gap on one side of the bellhousing.